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  1. #11
    Senior Moderator Jimmy Redman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jung View Post
    I'm not counting Hardy because fact is Hardy was super over in 2001/2002...and he was super over in 2009. He was allowed to beat and look incredibly competitive against the top guys back then. I'm not saying the guy is Hulk Hogan and yes HHH hammered him on the return, but the fans clearly bought him as somebody credible and when they were in-ring together they didn't look at it like top guy v someone who's not in his league. He didn't look out of place. I mean he was as over then, as he was in 2009, so was he made into something bigger? No he was as popular as he ever was and he main evented because they haven't made anybody else and he's super over...2 and 2 together.
    I still dont understand what you're trying to say here. He didnt become a main eventer in, say, 2009, because he was over 8 years ago? Forgive me, but what the f*ck are you on about?

    Early in the decade he was incredibly over as part of a tag team. He got what was portrayed as a fluke win over HHH in 2001, and he had a ladder match with Taker in 2002. So? Thats got nothing to do with being a main eventer! How many world titles did he win? How many PPVs did he headline? At what exact point was Jeff Hardy the top guy, or even one of the top guys in the company in 2001? He wasnt. He was over. So was Matt. Plenty of midcarders are (or were, actually) very over. That doesnt make them a main eventer.

    (In case this is my fault, in the context of this discussion I've always used "star" and "main eventer" interchangeably, but what I mean is probably closer to the latter if you think that midcarders can be stars.)

    Jeff Hardy was a midcarder. Maybe at points he was even an upper-midcarder, especially in the sense of "he was competitive against top guys" like you said, which makes sense because when you have a functioning upper-midcard, they SHOULD be competitive against the top guys. But we're not talking about making guys into upper-midcarders in 2010 (even though they should), we're talking about making them into big stars.

    Its the same with Edge. The fact that he was getting over in 2002 and got injured doesnt mean anything. If Kennedy hadnt have got injured in mid-2007 HE would have become a big star. But it never happened, so its irrelevant. When Edge came back in 2004 it wasnt like he picked up where he left off in 2002. He came back as a midcarder who had no heat, then he turned heel, and then luckily he slept with the right girlfriend of someone and away we go. Lita made Edge into a main eventer, way more than anything else. But he didnt become one for another year until he got to beat Cena over and over again. But it certainly wasnt inevitable that he would be because he was over in 2002 as a babyface, and certainly doesnt mean that he wasnt made into a main eventer in 2006.

    I mean if you were saying that they never get anyone, start from scratch, get behind them and push them continually to the top (because thats happened to anyone but Brock Lesnar..), then sure. But I just cannot get my head around the argument that pushing Edge in 2006 or Jeff in 2009 "didnt count", because they were over as midcarders years ago.

  2. #12

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    Ok I think we've got wires crossed here. I meant star as in super over with the crowd that they view them as stars. Didn't necessarily mean uber headliner.

    Early in the decade he was incredibly over as part of a tag team. He got what was portrayed as a fluke win over HHH in 2001, and he had a ladder match with Taker in 2002. So? Thats got nothing to do with being a main eventer! How many world titles did he win? How many PPVs did he headline? At what exact point was Jeff Hardy the top guy, or even one of the top guys in the company in 2001? He wasnt. He was over. So was Matt. Plenty of midcarders are (or were, actually) very over. That doesnt make them a main eventer.
    Thats fair enough but lets get one thing straight. Is Jeff Hardy a fully fledged main eventer? I mean he's main evented what 3-4 PPV matches or less? I mean who cares if he's won a world title or not so has Great Khali. The fact is, if he came back tomorrow would he go straight to headlining PPV's? I'm not so sure. Probably upper mid card. Which is where he was at in 2007. He's still probably not a regular main eventer now, there's certainly no guarantee he'd come back as one. The only reason he got given a short run last year was because of no Edge and no Taker.

    Jeff Hardy was a midcarder. Maybe at points he was even an upper-midcarder, especially in the sense of "he was competitive against top guys" like you said, which makes sense because when you have a functioning upper-midcard, they SHOULD be competitive against the top guys. But we're not talking about making guys into upper-midcarders in 2010 (even though they should), we're talking about making them into big stars.
    That's all fine then but again is Jeff Hardy a big star? Probably not. Again he was super over since the end of 2007 and how many PPV's did he headline? He left pretty well but we can't let 2 months being on top of a show which had absolutely no regular main eventers at the time, influence the idea that he became one of the elite. Taker, Edge, Cena, Batista, HHH, HBK, Orton were and are all viewed as above him. So wouldn't he just be in the position Punk is now? And that to me doesn't make him a big star. If he returned to SD tomorrow, Edge, Taker, Batista and maybe even Jericho would probably be above him. So was he made into anything or has he actually progressed up the card?

    I mean if you were saying that they never get anyone, start from scratch, get behind them and push them continually to the top (because thats happened to anyone but Brock Lesnar..), then sure. But I just cannot get my head around the argument that pushing Edge in 2006 or Jeff in 2009 "didnt count", because they were over as midcarders years ago.
    I see where you're coming from. Looking back on it I'll certainly say Edge was a guy who became a star in that period. But not Jeff Hardy simply because if he came back last Sunday he wouldn't have had a look in at winning the Rumble nor would he be headlining shows now IMO.

    So counting Edge that's 1 person since Cena/Batista, 5 years ago. It's still shit whichever way we go round this isn't it?

    EDIT: Just realised the clearest thing I can say about all of this is since Cena/Batista, only Edge has broken into the elite band of main eventers IMO.
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  3. #13
    Senior Moderator Jimmy Redman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jung View Post
    Ok I think we've got wires crossed here. I meant star as in super over with the crowd that they view them as stars. Didn't necessarily mean uber headliner.
    I figured. I mean star as, like, big star, main eventer type guy.

    Thats fair enough but lets get one thing straight. Is Jeff Hardy a main eventer? I mean he's main evented what 3 PPV matches or less? I mean who cares if he's won a world title or not. The fact is, if he came back tomorrow would he go straight to headlining PPV's? I'm not so sure. Probably upper mid card. Which is where he was at in 2006. He's still probably not a main eventer now, there's certainly no guarantee he'd come back as one. The only reason he got given a short run last year was because of no Edge and no Taker.
    He was a main eventer before he left. He was the top guy on Smackdown last year. He won the world title. He headlined the Rumble (you know what I mean there), Judgment Day, Extreme Rules, NoC, Summerslam, plus the title shot at the Bash as well. He was a top guy for that time, it was just a really short time because he left in the middle of it.

    No Edge? He won the world title from Edge! Edge only got injured in July, when he was moved into the tag title thing. The only thing was no Taker, but there's always a "no Taker" every year.

    That's all fine then but again is Jeff Hardy a big star? Probably not. Again he was super over since the end of 2007 and how many PPV's did he headline? He left pretty well but we can't let 2 months being on top of a show which had absolutely no regular main eventers at the time, influence the idea that he became one of the elite. Taker, Edge, Cena, Batista, HHH, HBK, Orton were and are all viewed as above him. So wouldn't he just be in the position Punk is now? And that to me doesn't make him a big star. If he returned to SD tomorrow, Edge, Taker, Batista and maybe Jericho would probably be above him. So was he made into anything or has he actually progressed up the card?
    I honestly think you're underestimating how big a star he is. I mean this isnt the most comprehensive example here, but there was a thing Meltzer did at the end of the year where it showed popularity by internet searches (not a smarky thing, just the internet) and he was HUGE, bigger than everyone except Cena, by a long way. And thats after leaving completely in August.

    The only thing that goes against him is that he was on Smackdown, the lesser show, and that he left when he did so he only had 4 months full-time on top. But he WAS on top and he was a big star.

    If he came back tomorrow he'd be lower than Jericho? I hate to say this, but LOL. If Jeff Hardy came back tomorrow he'd be HUGE. He was huge when he left, he's huge whenever they mention him, he'd be huge. He'd certainly not be lower than Jericho, thats hilarious. To be honest its hard to say who he'd be above or below since its WM time and everyone is on everyone else's brand. But he wouldnt come back into the midcard.

    And he hasnt progressed up the card? Of course he has!

    2006 - midcarder, IC Title
    2007 - midcarder, IC Title
    2008 - upper-midcard, title shot in January and main event by end of the year
    2009 - main event in Jan, midcard Matt feud, main event until leaving

    I see where you're coming from. Looking back on it I'll certainly say Edge was a guy who became a star in that period. But not Jeff Hardy simply because if he came back last Sunday he wouldn't have had a look in at winning the Rumble nor would he be headlining shows now IMO.
    If Jeff Hardy came back last Sunday I would have almost expected him to win the Rumble. Why not? Last Sunday he was a bigger star than Edge. And I definitely think he'd be headlining shows in 2010. Maybe on Smackdown, but he still would be.

    Not arguing that its sh*t of course.

  4. #14

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    He was a main eventer before he left. He was the top guy on Smackdown last year. He won the world title. He headlined the Rumble (you know what I mean there), Judgment Day, Extreme Rules, NoC, Summerslam, plus the title shot at the Bash as well. He was a top guy for that time, it was just a really short time because he left in the middle of it.
    But would he have been the top guy if Undertaker and Batista were on the show? I doubt it. And that's what I mean and is why I'd be skeptical if he came back say next week, that he would be below Edge, Batista and Undertaker.

    No Edge? He won the world title from Edge! Edge only got injured in July, when he was moved into the tag title thing. The only thing was no Taker, but there's always a "no Taker" every year.
    Not really, Taker only missed what 2 months over the summer of 2008. And he won the title from Edge, but then Edge was out a month later.

    I honestly think you're underestimating how big a star he is. I mean this isnt the most comprehensive example here, but there was a thing Meltzer did at the end of the year where it showed popularity by internet searches (not a smarky thing, just the internet) and he was HUGE, bigger than everyone except Cena, by a long way. And thats after leaving completely in August.
    Oh I'm not disputing how over he is or popular, not at all. I'm more saying, from WWE's viewpoint, I don't think they view him as an elite guy like Orton, Batista, Cena, Taker, DX, Edge etc. And he should be. But I just have this feeling that if he were on a show with them, they'd all be above him. Not in popularity or anything like that, but in how WWE themselves perceive him.

    If he came back tomorrow he'd be lower than Jericho? I hate to say this, but LOL. If Jeff Hardy came back tomorrow he'd be HUGE. He was huge when he left, he's huge whenever they mention him, he'd be huge. He'd certainly not be lower than Jericho, thats hilarious. To be honest its hard to say who he'd be above or below since its WM time and everyone is on everyone else's brand. But he wouldnt come back into the midcard.
    Again I'm talking about how WWE view him. I honestly don't think he'd waltz back into the main event. That would be something involving Taker, say Taker v Batista, with Punk/Jeff secondary, if such a thing were to happen. I just don't think he'd be in that elite group.

    If Jeff Hardy came back last Sunday I would have almost expected him to win the Rumble. Why not? Last Sunday he was a bigger star than Edge. And I definitely think he'd be headlining shows in 2010. Maybe on Smackdown, but he still would be.
    As I've mentioned, I just don't think he's in that elite bracket at the top. He should be, but I just don't believe he is. Which is why if he came back, I don't reckon he'd be in the top program, it would rather be Taker or Batista.

    For example say we got Jeff Hardy/Punk at WM. You reckon that would go on after Cena/Batista or Taker/HBK, or even Edge/Jericho?
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  5. #15
    Senior Moderator Jimmy Redman's Avatar
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    I dont think its as easy to say "if he came back tomorrow his Mania match would be midcard." Thats not about his position in reality, thats about his logical feud with someone who is a midcarder, plus the fact that he's not around to judge it. Last week you could have said "if Edge came back tomorrow, he'd have a Mania midcard match with Jericho" and it wouldnt have sounded any less reasonable. Does that make Edge not a main event guy?

    Mania is a stacked card anyway and there's only going to be two guys in the main event of it, but that doesnt mean that all the other top guys who arent on last arent top guys. There are more than two (or even four) big stars in the company.

    And I honestly disagree, if Jeff came back to Smackdown this year he'd be one of the top guys on the show, on the same level as Taker and Batista and certainly Jericho and Edge (as much as one can be on the same level as Taker, but you know what I mean). Taker is essentially always the top face on that show regardless of his position on the card, but Jeff would be the #1a face.

    Having said all of this though, I say this with a HUGE asterix. There's a good reason why Jeff isnt coming back tomorrow, or at least until April or whenever his legal problems are over, and they could well bring him in later and not push him to the moon again, but that would of course be down to that, not because he's not a star or whatever. But you get me.

  6. #16

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    I completely think he is a star and he's without a doubt (if he's around of course) would be potentially the second most over guy in the company.

    I'm not saying his match would be a midcard match, it would still be a major match. But I think it would go on before every other top guy's match. I honestly think if we had HHH/Sheamus or Orton/Dibiase, they could potentially go on after Jeff/Punk, if it were to happen. So if all the main guys had matches at Mania, I'd have reckonened Jeff's match to go on before the rest. Cause IMO, he's not in that elite bracket where he'd always be kept strong and in great programmes. I think he'd be in that section beneath with Rey and Jericho.

    And all of those situations of potential matches I just mentioned, in theory, it's a top guy against an upper midcarder and I think they'd all be deemed more important.

    I just believe if you asked WWE to name their top say 7 guys in the company, back in the July or so of last year, he wouldn't be in it. Yet he's more over than Batista and Edge, maybe Orton too.
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  7. #17
    Senior Moderator Jimmy Redman's Avatar
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    Yeah, but with Mania, again, thats just because we're guessing based on a hypothetical return that wont happen. In different circumstances he could have done an Edge, won the Rumble and had a title match. But as it is, he isnt a factor in any of the major programs, so we have to invent one with Punk that naturally isnt as important, because it doesnt exist! Like I said, a week ago we could have had this conversation and had to invent an Edge/Jericho Mania match in the exact same position, because on a hypothetical level thats all you can do, and that still doesnt make Edge not a star.

    Although even if we go along with it, I'd say it has as much chance of going on after Orton/Ted than the other way around. But thats because thats what they are: a star and a midcard guy, which on the Mania card is necessarily below the title matches and major Bret & Shawn angles. But that doesnt make Jeff not a major star, the same way it wont make Orton not a star to be in a midcard match with Legacy at Mania. The same way it didnt make Batista a lesser star when he had that midcard Umaga match at WM24, for example. Its one midcard match on by FAR the most stacked card of the year, it doesnt mean anything one way or the other.

    I dont think he's on the same level as Cena, Undertaker, DX. I dont think I ever said that, those guys are ALWAYS protected more than anyone else. But I think he is (or was before he left, which is really what I was arguing in the first place) on the same level as Orton, Batista, Edge - the other main eventers in the company who arent those four untouchable guys.

    Back in, to use your example, July last year, the top guys in the company were (in no particular order): HHH, Orton, Cena, Jeff, Punk, then maybe Jericho or something, who was in an upper-midcard role. So I think you're way off there.

    Even if you say, the day after Summerslam, so HBK & Taker are included, its still a list of HHH, HBK, Taker, Cena, Orton, Jeff, Punk. Not to say that all of them are on the same level with each other, but thats the list, there's nobody else who should be ahead of Jeff on either, so there's no way he's not on a shortlist of the top guys during the period when he was a top guy.

  8. #18

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    Lol ok we're going round in circles on this one, I'll agree to disagree.

    I'll just leave with this. I think if everybody is fit and active on the roster and Jeff was still around, he wouldn't be in the top 7 guys, as deemed by WWE.

    I'd also put Orton, Edge and Batista on that protected list. Always booked strongly.
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  9. #19
    Senior Moderator Jimmy Redman's Avatar
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    We seem to be making a habit of this.

    Although, Orton, protected? All anyone could talk about in 2009 was how sh*ttily Orton was booked.

  10. #20

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    But for a guy who was booked badly he basically headlined for nearly the entire year. I mean Cena's gets booked like a chump, but it doesn't change management's feelings for him.

    Kingston is booked badly, where he goes to an upper midcarder potential main eventer spot and then looks like a jobber and is shoved back down the card.

    Orton was still always in the top programmes for virtually the entire year. I mean he won the Rumble, headlined WM, was in virtually every top title match on Raw. So while he lost a fair few matches (much like Cena did in 2008) it wasn't like it affected him at all. There was the Shane thing sure, but he made major feuds with HHH, Batista, Cena and he beat Cena and HHH more than once and always featured in major programmes. I wouldn't really call that being booked badly. More just crap writing.

    Surely that's being protected? Cause if being given crap writing is not being protected, then nobody is apart from The Undertaker cause DX and Cena look like idiots most of the time. Protected to me is, whatever happens, you're still in the same spot and working the top matches 99% of the time. Which Orton was.
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