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  1. #11
    Senior Moderator John Hancock's Avatar
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    I think both have pretty good rosters on paper. I mean, WWE have the raw talent of; John Cena, The Undertaker, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Chris Jericho, Edge, CM Punk, Christian... all of whom, at one point or the other, have proven themselves to be, potentially the best wrestlers in the business at any one time. Add to that that they have proven talents like Bryan Danielson, Low Ki and The Briscoe Brothers in development. The WWE roster is, potentially just as strong as TNA's, but both have been killed by booking, but, for very different reasons.

    Essentially, TNA is trying and failing, and WWE isn't trying at all.

    Take, for example, Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan, two legends who recently returned to both companies, and see what happened to them.

    WWE - Bret Hart comes back and does, pretty much, EXACTLY what people expected him to do, almost to the letter. Nothing surprised anyone, nothing impressed anyone, because every single wrestling fan the world over knew what was coming next. WWE made no attempt to make it special, to make it different, to go above and beyond people's expectations, they just went along with what everyone was expecting. They didn't do anything stupid, but, at the same time, they didn't do anything good. They just 5/10'ed their way comfortably through it. And why shouldn't they? WWE isn't trying to beat anything anymore. They aren't fighting anything, they aren't threatened by anything. If you like wrestling, you HAVE to watch WWE, because what else are you going to watch? TNA? RoH? No, you're going to keep on watching WWE, so they don't care. The money keeps going up, the buy rates keep going up, the shares keep going up, the ratings keep going up, so they don't care and they aren't trying.

    TNA - On the other side, you have a company that IS trying, because, by an ENORMOUS margin, they're in second place. They have to try, because if they don't they know they'll be second place for ever. They're motived by an up hill battle, and thus HAVE to put in more effort than WWE does, but WWE frankly couldn't give two sh*ts about what wrestling fans think it, because, all our collective b*tching aside, 75% of this site still watches RAW, despite only Jung and Mitchell ever really having anything good to say about it.

    Of course, the problem is that, for all their self motivation, TNA are run by idiots. Serious, boarding on mentally disabled, idiots. They're also supported by idiots, who repeatedly defend every mistake they make, and condemn every mild change they make, making progress pretty much impossible from a critical point of view. Then you also have the rating-philes who throw pretty meaningless numbers in TNA's face every week, but that's neither here nor there.

    So, yeah, back to Hulk Hogan in TNA; Idiots trying their hardest. Can anyone genuinely, without looking it up, remember everything Hogan's done since he joined three months ago? He did a heel turn at one point for about half an hour, gave Abyss a magic ring, started a feud with Jeff Jarret during which both men were faces, acting like the other one was the heel of the century... he's done a lot of sh*t, and most of it without any real reason or pay off, just because TNA is controlled by morons who couldn't find a good idea if it was hanging out of Dixie Carter's vagina.

    So, yeah, that's my general critique. WWE don't care, and TNA don't think. TNA needs an entirely new creative, direction, work ethic... the works. Effectively, TNA, in it's current incarnation, is in one of those permanent comas where it won't ever get better, but it probably won't die, and it's just going to sit there, festering away, not doing anything. They need to yank out the life support, and pretty much start again. Then, hopefully, WWE will have some GENUINE competition, which might inspire the WWE creative team to stop phoning it in every week and actually try.

    Oh, and the amount of money these two companies throws around gobbles up every indie talent going before churning them into the big sh*t heap that is post-Attitude main stream wrestling, and so companies like RoH are left with piece of p*ss rosters as anyone with the slightest amount of talent gets bought up by the big too.

    Bah.
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  2. #12
    The Beltster's Avatar
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    If there was a good idea hanging out of Dixies vagina, I'd push it back up...with my c*ck.

    And WWE sucks.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayfunk View Post
    to be fair that is what the IWC do, they have very little else to do clearly
    You do realise that you're also talking about yourself when you say that, don't you?

    I enjoy a lot of what is shown today, but, by the same token, a lot of it, from both sides, has me tearing my hair out (metaphorically speaking) at the inane idiocy of it all.

    In TNA, little things, which, contrary to some opinions, do matter a great deal, get overlooked far, far too much. Storylines are either idiotic from the start (Jay Lethal losing to "legends"), end up being wasted (Abyss/Mesias feud) or are dropped without a word. Take, for example, Samoa Joe being kidnapped on Impact. A former TNA World Champion is abducted, right outside where the show is taking place and, apart from a single comment from Taz, literally nothing else has been mentioned in the time since the angle began. There was also the infamous (at least on these boards) time when Hernandez fought Sting for the World Title, had a signature move countered into a Scorpion Deathdrop, only for Hernandez to kick out. Now, that sequence, in a World Championship match, should have been used to show how experienced Sting is to be able to counter into his finisher AND how tough, how ready for the main event Hernandez is by kicking out of said finisher, a move that has, to borrow a cliché, defeated the best in the business and being able to continue. The announcers should've been all over it like it was the biggest thing to happen in wrestling, but they didn't even mention it. How is someone supposed to get over when the commentators can't even take something like that and put a guy over? Say what you like about WWE commentators, but they (especially JR) would've been all over that in a microsecond.

    WWE frustrate because they also have the talents to lead the company through the next ten years, but seem scared to pull the trigger with them. CM Punk and Jeff Hardy are/were exceptions, but the stop-start scenarios others have found themselves in is ridiculous. Kofi Kingston, Jack Swagger and Dolph Ziggler were all doing very well for themselves, but had their legs taken out from under them to various degrees. The Miz was on fire during his "series" with Cena, but that was pulled out from under him as well... but at least he's bounced back and is on a roll once again.

    The problem I have is that, to me, the answers are staring both companies in the face. I mean, take a look at the (expected) four main matches going into WrestleMania as examples.

    Triple H v Sheamus
    Undertaker v HBK
    Cena v Batista
    Jericho v Edge

    All four of them, even though two of them are also title matches, feature fueds that are simple and easy to understand. Sheamus attacked Triple H, so he wants revenge. Shawn Michaels is convinced he can beat Undertaker, while 'Taker is convinced he can't, so they're going to fight to see who the better man is; it's that simple. John Cena v Batista is for the WWE Championship, but it's also a rivalry that, due to the comments, goes back to their parallel rises to the top and how Cena was "picked" to be the poster boy. Batista feels he's the superior wrestler, so they'll fight to prove it. Lastly, Jericho v Edge, again for a championship, is a battle between two guys who feel that they're the best in the business, so they're going to 'Mania to settle it. Even, to add a fifth, Bret/Vince is so simple it books itself.

    Now, why can't WWE (and TNA) book like this all the time? Sure, have some matches that have twisting storylines, but keep the top of the tree, the money-winners, as simple as possible. Let the wrestlers and/or the titles sell the match, not who slept with who or some other shit that's been done a hundred times in the past.

    TNA also need to stop wasting "surprises" and then ruining the new talent within six months of them stepping into the company. With the latest acquisition getting possibly the greatest reaction in the history of the company, TNA has the chance to run all the way, have a new guy lead the babyface challenge and recapture his 1998-99 glory days with another "underground" promotion.

    I've been watching wrestling non-stop now for close to twenty years (I did watch it before in fits and starts, but from WrestleMania VII onwards, I've only missed it when I had no way of viewing it) and I've seen much better than we have now and much worse than we have now.

    Both companies have the tools required, but seem to either lack the means to use it or, as J-Rock said, simply don't care enough to use it at present.
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  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hancock View Post
    Does ANYONE, other than Asian, obviously, think that, creatively, and match-wise, this is the best wrestling has ever been? Seriously, anyone at all. I for one think this is, since I started watching in 1997, the WORST professional wrestling has ever been. I'm just interested in seeing what other people think.
    I've been watching wrestling now for 25 years, and even though the talent is there and the pyro's and the screaming fans, no the product itself is crap. Both the WWE and TNA have booking problems which let's both companies and fans down completely.

    The matches on that are televised on Raw and Smackdown are as boring as watching grass grow and in TNA's case just confusing. I'll still watch the product but I don't think I'm a jaded fan at all, just one that knows crap from good wrestling.
    I'm a bit of a b*llshitter myself but occasionally enjoy listening to an expert. Please carry on.

    "Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."

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  5. #15

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    If you want honesty the only thing I don't like currently is how both companies treat the titles. I like the current WWE storylines and I like where they are going with them but where is the Intercontinental title? Oh yeah, around Drew McIntyre's waist... and he never defends it. Where is the United States title? Oh, yeah around the Miz's waist... and he never defends it because all he does is defend the Unified Tag Team belts. And what exactly are the "unified Tag Team belts" really? Christ, just make two new belts for the "Unified Tag Team" champs instead of having them lug around FOUR BELTS.

    What about TNA? Global Belt? What's that? Why does someone have it they never defend it?

    If there is something I can complain about its the belts. Storylines are great, and I still believe they're doing a good job and Wrestlemania is making me very excited... but what they do with the belts is unforgivable.

    It's almost as if the only belts worth a damn are the Championship belts and the Tag Team belts (which, c'mon... when was the last time the WWE had a decent tag team? I'm kind of hoping Truth & Wisdom win because I can actually see them as a REAL tag team).

  6. #16

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    The wrestling industry isn't in a good state at all.

    Obviously creatively they are in the pooper and that shows through the ratings for Raw being way down on recent years and TNA ratings being lousy. Now people can argue all they want about what they like individually, but when creative is good and they tap into something be it a feud, a superstar or a mentality, it shows in the ratings cause it clearly catches on with popular culture ala WWE in the 80's and WWE and WCW from the mid to late 90's.

    On a whole now the wrestling industry is in a lot of trouble and trouble they've brought on.

    After buying WCW, WWE had no competition and basically jobbed out or fired most of the WCW signings they made. They then went for this brand split but had a complete lack of talent cause they fired guys who were ready to be on TV and had experience and craft...in favour of guys who were green as frogs and were nowhere near ready.

    Just keep rinsing and repeating that from 2002 onwards. Sure some guys have made it, but they'd have made it in most eras...because they are talented enough. But the majority have gone nowhere cause they were nowhere near good enough. People can say "oh but guys like Koko B.Ware were shit" but while Koko might not have been Jushin Liger in the ring, he knew how to sell something as important, had timing, patience and ultimately could connect with a crowd.

    95% of guys who come into WWE don't get that and never do. And they have nowhere to properly learn.

    15-16 years ago they could spend time in the likes of USWA, SMW or in Japan, not to mention ECW and then get to WWE and WCW. And WWE or WCW wpuld only sign them if they think they've got what it takes.

    Now the talent pool is so unbelievably limited. Sure there's ROH and yeah there are some talent there, but half of them haven't a clue how to work on a major stage and don't get the right kind of experience.

    And creative is never going to get any better if it's continually written by people who haven't been involved in wrestling. Once WWE got big and mainstream they decided to bring in ex Friends writers and Freddie Prinze jr etc...and they all failed. Why? Cause they don't know wrestling. That's why people watch the shows, not to see Friends or ER, but to see wrestling. And if you're shows are being written by people who have no idea about how to write wrestling, how are they going to get any better?

    Then Vince McMahon refuses to let go of the reigns and builds this notion that everyone in WWE should talk the same, work the same and look the same. Meaning even if they do find any diamonds in development territories, they'll turn into a robot when they arrive losing all individuality.

    TNA have no patience and are still trying to prove an idea which didn't work in 1999 and 2000 will work now, even though the reason it didn't was because it made no sense...and it don't matter what year it is, its never going to.

    TNA then constantly compare themselves to WWE in everything they do, from storylines to marketing to stars to approach when they should be doing the complete opposite and creating a genuine alternative to WWE. They haven't any hope because they are obsessed with fighting WWE and shouting at them, even though to be a success, they don't even need to acknowledge them.

    There's a million and one reasons why wrestling is in a bad state and why it will stay in one for years to come because of the stubborness to refuse to change, refuse to be unique individuals and refuse to admit why people watch a wrestling show.

    The only thing which is in a good state is WWE presentation and use of video library. WWE sets have never looked better and their presentation is as good as anybody. Their DVD releases, 24/7 and documentaries are also way beyond anything they've had in their history. And that means financially, they'll always be fine.

    But wrestling in the long term is f*cked if they don't step back and analyse why it became big in the 80's and late 90's. Didn't happen by chance.
    Turns Water into Funk

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  7. #17
    DC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    And what exactly are the "unified Tag Team belts" really? Christ, just make two new belts for the "Unified Tag Team" champs instead of having them lug around FOUR BELTS.
    It adds to the visual aspect. Being draped in title belts just looks impressive.
    No one knows what it's like
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  8. #18
    The Beltster's Avatar
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    They wont be draped in 4 title belts much longer.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    If you want honesty the only thing I don't like currently is how both companies treat the titles. I like the current WWE storylines and I like where they are going with them but where is the Intercontinental title? Oh yeah, around Drew McIntyre's waist... and he never defends it. Where is the United States title? Oh, yeah around the Miz's waist... and he never defends it because all he does is defend the Unified Tag Team belts. And what exactly are the "unified Tag Team belts" really? Christ, just make two new belts for the "Unified Tag Team" champs instead of having them lug around FOUR BELTS.

    What about TNA? World Belt? What's that? Why does someone have it they never defend it?

    If there is something I can complain about its the belts. Storylines are great, and I still believe they're doing a good job and Wrestlemania is making me very excited... but what they do with the belts is unforgivable.

    It's almost as if the only belts worth a damn are the Championship belts and the Tag Team belts (which, c'mon... when was the last time the WWE had a decent tag team? I'm kind of hoping Truth & Wisdom win because I can actually see them as a REAL tag team).
    The belts have been treated like crap for a long time now that fact I will agree with. The story lines are for the most part lame. Instead of getting rid of talent they should completely replace creative and booking and start off fresh. It can't be as bad as it is right now. I'm including both WWE and TNA in that statement. It's almost like they really don't give a shit anymore, as long as they can fill an arena they really don't care what they put out there.
    I'm a bit of a b*llshitter myself but occasionally enjoy listening to an expert. Please carry on.

    "Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."

    A rose by any other name, is just a pr*ck in a bush.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jung View Post
    But wrestling in the long term is f*cked if they don't step back and analyse why it became big in the 80's and late 90's. Didn't happen by chance.
    Wrong. Wrestling was "big" in the late 80's and 90's because of kayfabe and all this crap that (thankfully) they've shoved to the side. Like I said, did you see the matches in Wrestlemania I? This is what you're saying was "big" and didn't happen by chance? I'm sorry, Tito Santana vs. The Masked Executioner is not my idea of successful.

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