What makes a CLEAN Job in pro Wrestling? *split from Hogan/Flair*

[The Beltster]

Hogan loses the WWF title, lets see how many people went over him clean shall we?

Hogan loses the belt by it being sold and then a double DQ to throw him out of a n unbearable tournament, he doesn't lose.

Hogan loses by way of interferance from Ric Flair, the decision is held up. The rematch is disqualification-mania, the title is held up, he doesn't lose.

The Ultimate Warrior pins him clean.

Hogan loses by way of an exploding camera on his way out of the company, he doesn't put anyone over.

Who was the last person Hogan lost to? You have a very annoying habit of picking at straws to make yourself look good.

If I was to say that HHH has won the world title thousands of times, you would post back to say "it was actually ten times".I hate people using the exploding camera as an excuse to say Hogan didnt job clean simply because they dont like him, its a cop out, its pure bullshit. I dont give a rats ass what happens to cause it, but if you lay down 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring its a CLEAN JOB, end of story. Its funny how, when people point out the exploding camera, they gloss over the fact that Hogan got in zero offence throughout the entire match, allowed Yoko to pretty much beat him senseless and squash him throughout the entire match, couldnt slam him and laid down for his OWN LEGDROP FINISH. I'd say he pretty much put Yokozuna over as an unstoppable monster and made it look like the only reason he beat him at WMIX was on a fluke because he had wrestled Hart for 15 minutes. It also put Hart over as a guy who could handle Yoko better than Hogan. But lets forget all that because it doesnt fit the "Hogan doesnt put people over" crap.

Now, lets start from the beginning. No, Hogan didnt put people over during his huge drawing prime from from 1984 - 1990, and why is that? Because it would have been retarded to do so! Why not just burn money, right? Thats what it would have been like doing! You have a guy here who's gimmick was that he was unstoppable against all odds, he is drawimg you more money than anybody in the history of the business, so you want to pin him 1-2-3? Jesus, thats the most stupid thing I've ever heard! Fact is, people who dont like Hogan are the ones who complain he never jobbed, they totally discard the FACT it would have been a totally stupid business decision to make.

Hogan lost the title first time in the way he did to keep him strong while at the same time giving somebody else the chance to have a run with the belt. He was put with Randy Savage to give him the rub and allow Savage to share the spotlight with Hogan because on his own Savage wasnt a big enough star/draw. Like it or not, Savage on his own main eventing wouldnt have had thye success that tagging him up with Hogan did, all you Hogan haters get over your anti-Hogan bias and look at it from a business perspective and you will realise it was the best thing to do, plus it gave Savage alot more credability, PLUS it was all done to set up the year long backstory for the Hogan vs Savage feud which drew HUGE HUGE HUGE money, ratings and the big buyrate WMV got.

Hogan lost his second WWF title clean, 1-2-3 to the Warrior, proving when its right for business Hogan will do the J.O.B.

He lost his 3rd title clean, 1-2-3 to Taker. I dont care about the Flair chair crap, he still laid down for the pinfall, end of story, it was clean 1-2-3. It also made sense because it was supposed to start the Hogan vs Flair 'dream' feud that never panned out because of the steroid deal. So, again, it all made sense to have Flair cost Hogan the belt, right? Right!

He was stripped of his 4th title so it could be put up in the Rumble, which again made perfect sense so Flair could go an hour, living up his 60-minute-man gimmick and bag the title.

He lost his 5th title clean 1-2-3 to Yoko as I said earlier, leaving the company putting a guy over for the belt and giving him the unstoppable monster credability.

He then came back and jobbed to the Rock because it was the right thing to do, and he did it clean 1-2-3. He beat HHH and then jobbed to Taker clean 1-2-3. He then tapped out to Kurt Angle clean. He then jobbed clean to HHH on SD! After this he needed time off, and on his way out what did he do? Oh, thats right, he MADE Brock Lesnar look like a beast right before his Undisputed title match with the Rock at SummerSlam 2002. He let Brock Lesnar beat the **** out of him and leave him a crippled, bloody mess in the ring and stayed off TV for 6 months. Make no mistake about it, Brock Lesnar was made by Hogan that night, and thats that.

He came back and immediately jobbed 1-2-3 to the Rock. He beat Vince and Piper, two people it didnt hurt to drop to Hogan, all the while giving the rub to Zach Gowen. On his way out, he did the clean 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring to Big Show via chokeslam.

He came back and beat Hassan, Carlito, Tomko and HBK during his hugely successful drawing feud with Shawn Michaels. He came back again and beat Randy Orton.

Then fact is, on his way out he has always put people over clean (something Bret Hart refused to do, by the way!) and when it was good for business, he did the job.

Hogan didnt lose many in his prime because it would have been stupid, totall bad for business and anybody who says any different doesnt know what the hell they are talking about OR are blinded by their anti-Hogan bias.

[Darkstar]

I dont give a rats ass what happens to cause it, but if you lay down 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring its a CLEAN JOB, end of story.

I'd disagree 100%, as a former worker you should know that its only clen if you didnt have any help to get the pin/submission. Oh a match can still have 'non clean' (I cant think of the word, Im ill :P) moments and still have a clean finish; Brock vs Eddie being a good example as Goldberg ran in and attacked Brock but The Pain kicked out of Eddies pin so the match had to continue. Thats still a clean win.
To be fair I cant remember exactly how the camera thing went, and so im not commenting on that. Just the clean job thing. :P

[The Beltster]

I'd disagree 100%, as a former worker you should know that its only clen if you didnt have any help to get the pin/submission. Oh a match can still have 'non clean' (I cant think of the word, Im ill :P) moments and still have a clean finish; Brock vs Eddie being a good example as Goldberg ran in and attacked Brock but The Pain kicked out of Eddies pin so the match had to continue. Thats still a clean win.
To be fair I cant remember exactly how the camera thing went, and so im not commenting on that. Just the clean job thing. :PWe will never agree on this, ever. When I would do a job, whether it be after a finish or interference, it didnt change what I considered to be a clean 1-2-3.

The finish was Hogan hitting the legdrop, Yoko kicking out, Hogan then getting hit with a fireball, chop to the throat and then hit with the legdrop 1-2-3. So he let Yoko kick out of his finish, let himself then get pinned by his own finish. All this after basically looking like a jobber throughout the match. To me, it was a clean and decisive loss, and the commentators like Savage, Heenan and Ross made a point to rub in how bad Hogan got jobbed after the bell.

I mean its not like Hogan lost after getting hit with the fireball, he wasnt pinned from that, Yoko still knocked him off his feet with the double throat chop and blasted him with a huge legdrop for the pinfall.

Here:

http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o133/chrisppage/?action=view&current=HulkvsYoko.flv

[Darkstar]

I wouldnt call it clean, but its decisive for sure.

Edit: the fireball...who did it?
And it was odd to see Yokos win being cheered by a fair fewf the fans from that era.

[The Beltster]

I wouldnt call it clean, but its decisive for sure.

Edit: the fireball...who did it?
And it was odd to see Yokos win being cheered by a fair fewf the fans from that era.The fireball was thrown by Harvey Wipleman, but that was never mentioned on TV, I think they said it was a Japanese photographer that Mr. Fuji paid off or something.

I think by 1993 a portion of the audience were tired of Hogan being on top of the WWF. It started in 1991 when Taker pinned Hogan (clean, by the way :P ) and people popped. It continued at the 1992 Rumble when Sid heaved Hogan out and people popped. It subsided at WMVIII and it wasnt evident in 1993 before the KotR, but then at the PPV as you said, some fans popped for Hogans loss.

Hogan himself admits on his DVD that people were "Tired of the legdrop and tired of seeing the shirt ripped off."

[Darkstar]

The fireball was thrown by Harvey Wipleman, but that was never mentioned on TV, I think they said it was a Japanese photographer that Mr. Fuji paid off or something.

Thnak Christ, I had horrible thoughts that they would have claimed it was an acidental explosion from a camera. :lol

[Danny Styles]

I dont give a rats ass what happens to cause it, but if you lay down 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring its a CLEAN JOB, end of story.

so by that reckoning every time there is an interference or a chair shot at the end of the match the person loosing because of it has jobbed clean?

wow! HHH has lost cleanly MILLIONS of times by that reckoning then, why all the haters?!

[The Beltster]

so by that reckoning every time there is an interference or a chair shot at the end of the match the person loosing because of it has jobbed clean?

wow! HHH has lost cleanly MILLIONS of times by that reckoning then, why all the haters?!If you lose 1-2-3, its a clean pinfall job, IMO. Same with submission/tapout. I dont care how you get to that point, I dont care what happens to cause it, if you lay down for a three or tap, even if you have your foot on the ropes, its a clean loss. There are instances where 1-2-3 losses arent clean, like when Mankind held the Rock down with a forklift, that was stupid. Or, when Heenan held the Warriors legs as the ref counted. But if you are laid out and you get pinned, nobody outside holding you down etc, I consider it clean.

[DC]

If you lose 1-2-3, its a clean pinfall job, IMO. Same with submission/tapout. I dont care how you get to that point, I dont care what happens to cause it, if you lay down for a three or tap, even if you have your foot on the ropes, its a clean loss. There are instances where 1-2-3 losses arent clean, like when Mankind held the Rock down with a forklift, that was stupid. Or, when Heenan held the Warriors legs as the ref counted. But if you are laid out and you get pinned, nobody outside holding you down etc, I consider it clean.Does that mean when Andre pinned Hogan to win the belt, even though Hogan's shoulders weren't down, that it was a clean finish?

A clean fall is when there is nothing to taint it, hence it is clean, not dirty.

Austin v Rock at WM17 was clean because it was a no-DQ match, so anything goes. Hogan v Yokozuna, as much as I agree that Hogan put him over during the match, was not a clean finish. Undertaker piledriving Hogan on a chair that Flair slid into the ring, and then pulled out, was not a clean finish.

I know that you argue your points well Beltey, but you are wrong in this situation, otherwise there would be very few screwy finishes. By your reckoning, the Montreal Screwjob was a clean finish because the match ended by submission decision, regardless of how we got to that result. Austin winning the Rumble in 1997 was clean also, even though he had been thrown out already? Slaughter pinning Warrior for the WWF title was clean? Every time someone is laid out with a title belt and then pinned (when the match is not a no-DQ) is a clean finish?

You are entitled to your opinion, but I would say 99.99% of wrestlers, wrestling fans and wrestling journalists would disagree with you.

[The Beltster]

Does that mean when Andre pinned Hogan to win the belt, even though Hogan's shoulders weren't down, that it was a clean finish?Thats totally different, because it was part of an angle and Hogan popped up after and everybody on commentary said "Hogan had a shoulder up!" He didnt job then, it was something to further the angle. Just like Bret in Montreal. He lost via submission, but everybody knew he never
submitted, see what I mean?

A clean fall is when there is nothing to taint it, hence it is clean, not dirty.A clean pinfall is when you are laid out on your back in the middle of the right, shoulders down and you are pinned 1-2-3. I dont care if its from a powerbomb, legdrop, DDT, chairshot or an exploding camera, when you are out on your back in the middle of the ring, nobody holding your legs etc, no shoulder up, and the ref slaps the mat 1-2-3, you just lost via clean pinfall.

Austin v Rock at WM17 was clean because it was a no-DQ match, so anything goes. Hogan v Yokozuna, as much as I agree that Hogan put him over during the match, was not a clean finish. Undertaker piledriving Hogan on a chair that Flair slid into the ring, and then pulled out, was not a clean finish.I disagree. Like I said, I dont care what happens to lead upto it, if you are on your back laid out when the ref counts three, you did a clean pinfall job. I dont think "Oh, look how Hogan had the camera blow up in his eyes to make him look like Yoko couldnt beat him clean!" because I consider Hogan to have clean jobbed in that match, the theatrics of the camera etc is just typical over-the-top pro wrestling, nothing more.

I know that you argue your points well Beltey, but you are wrong in this situation, otherwise there would be very few screwy finishes. By your reckoning, the Montreal Screwjob was a clean finish because the match ended by submission decision, regardless of how we got to that result. Austin winning the Rumble in 1997 was clean also, even though he had been thrown out already? Slaughter pinning Warrior for the WWF title was clean? Every time someone is laid out with a title belt and then pinned (when the match is not a no-DQ) is a clean finish?No, I'm not wrong in this instance, you simply disagree with me. I'm not saying I'm right, because I dont think there is a right or wrong, we just have a different perception/opinion on what we consider to be clean jobs. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying I see it in a different light than you do.

And no, the Montreal deal wasnt clean, I explained that above. It wasnt clean because it was a swerve. There are instances where a pinfall or a submission isnt clean, like when Heenan held Warriors legs at WMV or the Hogan/Andre thing you mentioned, and the Bret Hart thing too. However, for the most part, I consider pinfalls or submissions to be clean. Warrior losing the title to Slaughter was clean, 1-2-3 in the middle. I dont care how it happened, Warrior agreed to lay down to Sarge via pinfall right? Doesnt matter that he had Savage come out and crack him to me, because he still agreed in the back to lay down for Sarge and went through with it in the match, hence he jobbed clean via pinfall.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I would say 99.99% of wrestlers, wrestling fans and wrestling journalists would disagree with you.Well thank God I'm not worried about what other people think! :lol

[Darkstar]

No, I'm not wrong in this instance, you simply disagree with me. I'm not saying I'm right, because I dont think there is a right or wrong, we just have a different perception/opinion on what we consider to be clean jobs. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying I see it in a different light than you do.


No, opinion and fact are different things. This time you are trying to alter a fact to fit your opinion, and it doesnt work like that. Fact is a clean win, like DC says, is when there is nothing to taint it. When there is no outside help of any description or any cheating.
That is a FACT of pro wrestling, its not like asking who does the best powerbomb as thats opinion.

[Nightfox]

I just watched that clip, how can you say Hogan Cleanly Jobbed? there was interferance. It was not clean at all. He may aswell have been hit by a chair or something, same differance, same result.

[The Beltster]

No, opinion and fact are different things. This time you are trying to alter a fact to fit your opinion, and it doesnt work like that. Fact is a clean win, like DC says, is when there is nothing to taint it. When there is no outside help of any description or any cheating.
That is a FACT of pro wrestling, its not like asking who does the best powerbomb as thats opinion.Opinion and fact are two different things? Wow, thank Christ you cleared that up for me, with my meagre intelligence and your super-brain, you might have just saved the day! :lol. Incase you dont realise, I do know that opinion and fact are different, I'm not retarded. And no, I'm not trying to alter anything, I'm giving you my OPINION, nowhere have I stated it as fact, I've clearly said "THIS IS MY OPINION!"

A clean win in your eyes is where there is nothing to taint it, a clean win in my eyes is when a guy lays down for a 1-2-3, regardless. My OPINION differs from your OPINION, thats the end of it, there is no fact.

Produce the pro-wrestling rule book and show me where it clearly states that "A clean pinfall victory only counts when blah blah blah" and I'll say "ok, your right, its a fact", until then its nothing more than your opinion, which happens to be different from mine. End of story.

I've wrestled, I did it for 4 years, dont think I'm the only person who thinks this way, where do you think my opinion was swayed to think this way? Oh thats right, in pro wrestling locker rooms in various parts of the country. So, not everybody will agree with you, just as they wont me.

We have different opinions old bean, live with it.

[DC]

Taken from Wikipedia:

Clean finish: When a match ends without cheating or outside interference, usually in the center of the ring.

Screwjob: A match with a controversial or unsatisfying finish, often involving cheating or outside interference.

That pretty much is a cut-and-dry definition of what a clean (and an unclean) finish is to the majority. TBH Beltey, you say you shared this opinion with people backstage at shows. I've been in the business for around 10yrs, and I have never heard anyone have that opinion before.

[The Beltster]

Taken from Wikipedia:

Clean finish: When a match ends without cheating or outside interference, usually in the center of the ring.

Screwjob: A match with a controversial or unsatisfying finish, often involving cheating or outside interference.

That pretty much is a cut-and-dry definition of what a clean (and an unclean) finish is to the majority. TBH Beltey, you say you shared this opinion with people backstage at shows. I've been in the business for around 10yrs, and I have never heard anyone have that opinion before.Wikipedia can be edited by anybody, its not all factual, its opinion based and hey, I have no doubt it might veru well be how the majority of people see it. But, I'll say it again, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm not saying that I deny most people possibly see it the way you do, what I'm saying is PERSONALLY if a guy lays down for a 1-2-3, I CONSIDER him to have done a clean job. What is so hard to understand or accept about this? I'm not trying to get you or anybody else to see it my way, its simply my opinion, notihng more.

And I didnt share it with people backstage, people shared it with me, as in it was their opinion of how they saw it and I took it in, saw what they meant and agreed. Before that, I never really had an opinion because in 1997 I didnt look at wrestling as a business involving jobs and clean and dirty etc, I was a 17 yr old kid still believing in kayfabe and so on.

[Darkstar]

what I'm saying is PERSONALLY if a guy lays down for a 1-2-3, I CONSIDER him to have done a clean job. What is so hard to understand or accept about this? I'm not trying to get you or anybody else to see it my way, its simply my opinion, notihng more.

And what we are saying is that it doesnt matter if its your opinion as its just WRONG. Opinion is subjective, a fact is a fact.

I dont give a rats ass what happens to cause it, but if you lay down 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring its a CLEAN JOB, end of story.

thats not stating an opinion, thats stating a fact. And you are just wrong. No two ways about it. It owuld be like me claiming Hogan doesnt have a TV show, I could claim it was my opinion as its not on normal TV, but I would be very wrong.

Edit: also in my 7 years in wrestling I have never heard anyone say that about clean finishes either belty. Who actually said it to you?

[The Beltster]

And what we are saying is that it doesnt matter if its your opinion as its just WRONG. Opinion is subjective, a fact is a fact. You know what mate, you are entitled to your OPINION and I'm entitled to mine, lets leave it at that ok...

thats not stating an opinion, thats stating a fact. And you are just wrong. No two ways about it. It owuld be like me claiming Hogan doesnt have a TV show, I could claim it was my opinion as its not on normal TV, but I would be very wrong.I disagree and I've explained why. I'm not going over it again and again.

Edit: also in my 7 years in wrestling I have never heard anyone say that about clean finishes either belty. Who actually said it to you?You know better than that. I'm not going to give you names of people I've had conversations with privately in the locker room.

[MVP]

Hogan lost his second WWF title clean, 1-2-3 to the Warrior, proving when its right for business Hogan will do the J.O.B.

That'd be the same match where immediately following his loss he rushed to ringside,snatched the wwf title from the timekeeper and re-entered the ring to hug the Warrior then left with everybody watching him and not the new champion. (he even admitted he sabotaged Warrior's reign by saying after the pin " now was my time to get back for that loss " and " as warrior held the belt in the air nobody cared ".

Also he was going to be shooting a new film so he could not represent the company as champion at that time.

I could add more anti-Hogan comments but instead I'll acknowledge that he is the biggest drawing card in wrestling history regardless of what people might say.

A clean job is selling the opponent's offense,not stealing their thunder before or after the match and not leaving any questions as to the validity of the pinfall/submission finish.

[The B-Man]

Beltmatks comments in this thread make me laugh.

Clean win - No interference resulting in the win.

Non-Clean finish - Well the opposite.

It doesn't take a genious to figure that out does it?

[Darkstar]

You know better than that. I'm not going to give you names of people I've had conversations with privately in the locker room.

fair enough, I just wanted to see if you spoke to actual wrestlers or just Kris Sprules. ;)

[/toungeincheek]

A clean job is selling the opponent's offense,not stealing their thunder before or after the match and not leaving any questions as to the validity of the pinfall/submission finish.

I may disagree with Belty, but at least he makes some sense. How does 'stealing thunder' stop a job being clean?

[The Beltster]

That'd be the same match where immediately following his loss he rushed to ringside,snatched the wwf title from the timekeeper and re-entered the ring to hug the Warrior then left with everybody watching him and not the new champion. (he even admitted he sabotaged Warrior's reign by saying after the pin " now was my time to get back for that loss " and " as warrior held the belt in the air nobody cared ".Yes, that is the match where, in a PLANNED SPOT, Hogan went outside the ring, took the belt from the time keeper and put Warrior over huge after the match by giving him the rub by handing him the belt, raising his hand and leaving the ring. I dont care what Hogan said in his book, the spot was planned, end of story.

Oh, and Roddy Piper did the same thing after he lost the IC title to Bret, and he never even left the ring but instead helped the beaten and battered Hart all the way to the back, nobody seems to have a problem with that though, do they? Nobody seems to think Piper stole Harts spotlight, do they? No...funny that!

Also he was going to be shooting a new film so he could not represent the company as champion at that time.And? What does that have to do with anything? He dropped the title when he needed to, and thats that. Clean. 1-2-3.

I could add more anti-Hogan comments but instead I'll acknowledge that he is the biggest drawing card in wrestling history regardless of what people might say.Add as many as you like and I'll counter them.

A clean job is selling the opponent's offense,not stealing their thunder before or after the match and not leaving any questions as to the validity of the pinfall/submission finish.I disagree. Going by that logic, Cena's lucky schoolboy roll-up CLEAN PIN over Umaga wasnt clean, because Umaga wasnt selling at the time, and there were lots of questions left about the validity of the finish seeing as Cena 'got lucky'.

[MVP]

The New Year's Revolution WWE title finish would have been clean if Cena had got in significant offense but instead he was booked as being out of his depth with the Samoan Bulldozer.

[The Beltster]

The New Year's Revolution WWE title finish would have been clean if Cena had got in significant offense but instead he was booked as being out of his depth with the Samoan Bulldozer.It was a clean finish! And come on, you were the one going on and on about Hogan stealing Warriors thunder etc, dont ignore everything I said if you are so clever, tell me I'm wrong...

[Omega]

seems to me that doing the J.O.B is more like what Belty considers a clean win. If you let someone pin you and therefore do the jobthen the win is clean and it's a dirty win if the result is in some way aided to by other factors. If you substitute clean for jobbing then it makes more sense. I guess you could look at it from Kayfabe and non-kayfabe points of view.

In Kayfabe an interferance of any sort make the win "dirty" becuase the story being told is that the jobber only lost becuase of that interferance. This seems to be how the 99.9% of people see it as DS mentioned.

Out of kayfabe it may well be believed that doing the job by being pinned or submitting is the "clean" loss/win because you allow yourself to by pinned or tap as the match booking dictates. if however as part of the booking your held down outside or counted out because of a manager or other wrestlers it could be seen as a "dirty" win because the person who is jobbing isn't actually losing by pinfall/submission they are having the match "stolen" by someone else. This to me sounds more like what Belty is saying and in some ways could be seen as a more correct way of viewing things because it relates to what actually happens (in the sense of what actual wrestlers do fopr a living) and not the how the story of the booking is being represented to an audience (ie, how the creative team would plan an angle/Storyline).

But to be fair I'm with the 99.9% on this one but I do see Beltmarks point...

[The Beltster]

seems to me that doing the J.O.B is more like what Belty considers a clean win. If you let someone pin you and therefore do the jobthen the win is clean and it's a dirty win if the result is in some way aided to by other factors. If you substitute clean for jobbing then it makes more sense. I guess you could look at it from Kayfabe and non-kayfabe points of view.

Out of kayfabe it may well be believed that doing the job by being pinned or submitting is the "clean" loss/win because you allow yourself to by pinned or tap as the match booking dictates. if however as part of the booking your held down outside or counted out because of a manager or other wrestlers it could be seen as a "dirty" win because the person who is jobbing isn't actually losing by pinfall/submission they are having the match "stolen" by someone else. This to me sounds more like what Belty is saying and in some ways could be seen as a more correct way of viewing things because it relates to what actually happens (in the sense of what actual wrestlers do fopr a living) and not the how the story of the booking is being represented to an audience (ie, how the creative team would plan an angle/Storyline).

But to be fair I'm with the 99.9% on this one but I do see Beltmarks point...SPOT ON! Christ you got it EXACTLY, I'd never have been able to lay it out the way you did, so I owe you one for explaining it better than I could/did.

Great!

[Jack]

I generally agree with what you're saying about these actual matches, Beltmark, although I disagree with your interpretation of a "clean" win. The obvious question is, if someone has been pinned clean off 15 sledgehammer shots and it is classed a clean win, what isn't? What would you consider as a "dirty" (Or whatever the word is) win? Things like holding the ropes/tights or whatever?

[Fidel Cashflow]

A clean finish is when it cannot be second guessed.

If you can say "Man, he never would've won had it not been for", then it is not a clean finish.

A fireball? It's a total heel, cheating move. It's outside the rules of the match, and had it been noticed by the referee, Yokozuna would've been DQ'd. Had the ref noticed the chair, Undertaker would've been DQ'd. Why? It's cheating. They cheated to win, making it a DIRTY finish, whereas in a CLEAN finish there is no shenanigans.

If you can watch a match and say "That's not fair", and feel someone deserves a rematch because they were cheated, then there is no way in hell it is a clean finish.

Most people in the stands don't know backstage politics and insider technicalities, what they see is all they see.

[CoTT]

How the hell is this even up for discussion? Everyone knows what a clean win is. It's a win without cheating or interference. If you think otherwise, you're just wrong.

And for the record, Eddie Guerrero going over Brock Lesnar was NOT a clean win. Goldberg clearly assisted the victory as Guerrero was booked as not being able to compete with Lesnar physically.

[Darkstar]

And for the record, Eddie Guerrero going over Brock Lesnar was NOT a clean win. Goldberg clearly assisted the victory as Guerrero was booked as not being able to compete with Lesnar physically.

Thats just not true though. Goldberg did a run in and attacked Brock. Eddie went for the pin but brock kicked out. Brock and Eddie then had another couple of minutes of wrestling before Eddie got him down for the frog splash.
The Goldberg run in didnt actually do anything other than help along the brock/Goldberg fued.

Edit: Eddie never went for the pin, my mistake. Eddie tried a belt shot but it missed. brock went for the F5 but Eddie countered into a DDT onto the belt before hitting the Frog Splash.
So it WASNT clean, but it was a belt shot not Goldbergs run in that decided the ending. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWWmkMiVArs

[Omega]

How the hell is this even up for discussion? Everyone knows what a clean win is. It's a win without cheating or interference. If you think otherwise, you're just wrong.

And for the record, Eddie Guerrero going over Brock Lesnar was NOT a clean win. Goldberg clearly assisted the victory as Guerrero was booked as not being able to compete with Lesnar physically.

It's up for discussion becuase this is a forum and so debate in encouraged. Belty actually has a really interesting point if you choose to get down from your ivory tower and give it a go. If you look at wrestling from the actual wrestlers point of view "doing the JOB" means letting your opponent beat you. So whether they use a chair or whether they don't is immaterial because the loser HAS to lay down and be pinned or submitted. therefore the "loss" is down to the losing wrestler staying down for 3 or tapping, Betly's clean win idea.

If however a manager holds a leg or if they losing wrestler gets distracted and gets counted out or DQ'd then thats a "dirty" loss because the match didn't end with the ref counting to 3 or seeing a tap. They don't actually have to do "the JOB" becuase the decision goes against them beyond their "control".

To the observer the rule is simple, any interferance is a "dirty" win but to an actual wrestler who is doing his normal everyday job then there is a difference.

So the whole Hogan V Yoko thing would be a clean "JOB" becuase Hogan was pinned. A "dirty" job would be like when a wrestler is on a for a win but gets lured out of the ring or gets DQ'd by mistake. He loses without having to do the "JOB"...

[Darkstar]

So, youre saying that belty is claiming that its only a dirty job if you didnt agree with it?

[The B-Man]

This is possibly the most stupid thread in TWO history.

[Omega]

So, youre saying that belty is claiming that its only a dirty job if you didnt agree with it?

No, not at all. you know that as well since my previous post explained it all very clearly. If you didn;t agree to an ending thats a screwjob. Jobbing to someone else via pinfall or submission regardless of any other factors is a clean win outside of kayfabe. The loser allows themselves to be pinned and therefore does the "job". If something else causes him to lose or someone else prevents him from kicking out DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE COULD then it's a not clean becuase the loser doesn't allow themselves to be pinned becuase they are prevented from kicking out. they aren't doing a full "job" becuase they aren;t allowing themselves to be pinned or tap out. It's not stupid to talk about this at all, I actually think that Belty raises an interesting issue over how you determine something is clean or not DEPENDANT ON WHERE YOU LOOK AT THE ISSUE.

Being stupid is to post a totally pointless comment about whether a thread is stupid or not. Why don't we all just sit at home and not talk to each other and pretend we agree on everything...

[Darkstar]

No, not at all. you know that as well since my previous post explained it all very clearly.


Actually I was legit enquiring as I wasnt too sure what you were saying.


In kayfabe say you pinned after a run in/chair shot/belt shot/exploding camera/fireball, is that clean Omega? How can it be clean if you only got the win due to a belt shot? Due to CHEATING, which is the difference between clean and dirty. Cheating = dirty.

[Omega]

Actually I was legit enquiring as I wasnt too sure what you were saying.


In kayfabe say you pinned after a run in/chair shot/belt shot/exploding camera/fireball, is that clean Omega? How can it be clean if you only got the win due to a belt shot? Due to CHEATING, which is the difference between clean and dirty. Cheating = dirty.

ok, sorry thought you were being facicous!

In Kayfabe all the above are NOT clean wins, from the audience perspective the loser has been cheated out of a win. I agree 100% that IN KAYFABE all those actions are cheating therefore the win is "dirty".

OTUSIDE kayfabe however as a wrestler to lose via pinfall or submission you have to "let" the pther person pin you (unless it's a screwjob of course). The act of letting the person pin or make you tap means they have won becuase you "let" them. If however a manager grabbed you ankles and stopped you kicking out or your major rival taunted you from off stage and you got counted out then you wouldn't have had to "let" your opponent win both in and out of kayfabe. This then is the "dirty" win Belty and I mean, since the loser is not choosing to aloow himself to be pinned or tap then any win cannot be described as "clean", it's not treally a case of the win being dirty in itself (ie through a chair shot or exploding camera!) it's more about what part the wrestler who loses takes in the ending of the match. So Hulk doing a job to yoko or flair aiding Taker are clean becuase the loser of those matches allows the winner to pin them. Had Mr Fuji held onto Hogans legs he wouldn't have "jobbed" (ie, been pinned) "cleanly" (ie, by not kicking out).

I think the thing to do is not ahnd onto labels like "clean" and "dirty" becuase the points we're making is that it's not the actions of the winner that really make the difference it's how the loser goes about losing....

[Darkstar]

ok, sorry thought you were being facicous!

In Kayfabe all the above are NOT clean wins, from the audience perspective the loser has been cheated out of a win. I agree 100% that IN KAYFABE all those actions are cheating therefore the win is "dirty".

So you agree with us that Hogans loss to Yoko was dirty then? Exploding camera and all. THAT is where it all stems from, Beltmark claimed that despite the exploding camera it was clean as no matter what happens its a clean win if its pinfall or submission.

I hate people using the exploding camera as an excuse to say Hogan didnt job clean simply because they dont like him, its a cop out, its pure bullshit. I dont give a rats ass what happens to cause it, but if you lay down 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring its a CLEAN JOB, end of story


Thats the logic we are debating, fact is that in terms of pro wrestling (from a viewers perspective) a clean win or a dirty win does exist.

[Omega]

So you agree with us that Hogans loss to Yoko was dirty then? Exploding camera and all. THAT is where it all stems from, Beltmark claimed that despite the exploding camera it was clean as no matter what happens its a clean win if its pinfall or submission.



I'm agreeing that from a viewers perspective it was a "dirty" win. I've said that all along. I'm saying that if you look at it from the point of view of Hulk Hogan what he did was allow Yoko to pin him to the mat 1,2,3 and in doing so he "jobbed" to him. You could say that from the actual wrestlers point of view it doesn't matter whether there was an exploding camera or not, the whole point is Hulk allowed himself to be pinned. He didn't get held down by Fuji, he didn't kick out miraculously and he wasn't interfered with in regards to the actual moment of him losing. So you could argue that in that moment the win is a "clean" one because Hogan got pinned 1,2,3.

It is a convaluted point but it is worth looking at from this angle. It's certainly a lot easier to do the "JOB" if you get counted out or there is blatant cheating with the pin than it is to be pinned by your opponent in the middle of the ring in front of an audience. You might go and say it's actually harder to deal with the chairshot/Exploding Camera and lose because the other ways allow a modecome of pride to be extracted by not physically losing via pinfall or submission. Any E-fedder will tell you that they'd rather their character lost via DQ or countout than a pin or sub becuase it makes them look weaker to other people. thats the point of why it's clean or not....

You have to look at it without any kind of Kayfabe thoughts entering your head. Don't think about wins and losses in the sense of marking the collums but see it as who has to do the job of losing the match and the manner in which they lose.

The other thing to note is that neither Belty or myself have said that this "other" way of looking at things is the only way to look at this issue. Only that it's possible to describe wins as clean by a slightly different definition...

[The Beltster]

This is possibly the most stupid thread in TWO history.Do us a favour, either add something constructive, or shut the **** up!

[Darkstar]

Alpha, the entire debate is stems from people saying Hogan didnt lose clean, only dirty. Belty said that his loss to Yoko was clean despite the exploding camera.

True or false, its a clean loss within the confines of the debate?

[Omega]

It's both, dependant on your point of view. If you can see the logic of Belty's arguement and my summation of it then it is entirely possible to see that loss as clean becuase Hogan allowed himself to be pinned by Yokozuna.

If you go with the "Audience Perception" view then it's obviously a dirty win becuase of the outside interferance. DS, you have to see that the debate isn't confined to one view or the other so in essance no view point is wrong. Both arguements are sound and don;t have any major flaw other than people choosing not to see things from that P.O.V.

The problem really comes down to the fact that if you can't see any logic in the counter-arguement then it just looks like we'er both talking rubbish. There is a very good strand of logic in the secondary idea of a clean win and even if you don't agree that it is way you (or anyones else) you must admit that the idea of any pin/sub being clean does have some validity even if it doesn't fit in with the average mans idea.

I'm not asking for anyone to suddenly say "oh wait a second, now I agree with Betly and Alpha". I even said in my first post that I agree that I'd see it from the Audience Perspective but I also see it from the other way and that too makes sense to me.

[Jung]

I have to say usually I see Belty's viewpoint but on this one its just ridiculous.

If every pinfall, regardless of what happens is a clear win, then that means every match is a clean win. Which would defeat the whole point of categorising.

This would also mean HHH, Hogan, Austin, etc etc have all made stars out of everyone they've lost to, since they lost cleanly, and it was fair.

Just makes no sense. If you cheat to beat somebody, its a hollow victory, that does more for the loser, than for the winner.

I mean Rock beating Foley at Rumble, clean win?

And we all remember Hogan beating Nash fair and square don't we on Nitro for the title?

Just ridiculous, can't ever agree with you on this.

[Omega]

Why would every match be a clean win? there are more ways to lose a match than pin and submission and more ways to interfere than just a chair shot.

The whole point is that the "victory" only means smoething in KAYFABE. it's means nothing in real life as it's scripted so who wins or loses only matters to the fans really. Don't try and be all marky about, see what a wrestler has to do as part of his job description. Losing a match is different to HOW you lose a match. Some who lays down for a to in the KAYFABE sense means they we're in cahoots with the person to lose the title. OUT of kayfabe allowing someone to pin you is allowing them to beat you as opposed to any of the other ways to end a match....

[Jung]

Why would every match be a clean win? there are more ways to lose a match than pin and submission and more ways to interfere than just a chair shot.

The whole point is that the "victory" only means smoething in KAYFABE. it's means nothing in real life as it's scripted so who wins or loses only matters to the fans really. Don't try and be all marky about, see what a wrestler has to do as part of his job description. Losing a match is different to HOW you lose a match. Some who lays down for a to in the KAYFABE sense means they we're in cahoots with the person to lose the title. OUT of kayfabe allowing someone to pin you is allowing them to beat you as opposed to any of the other ways to end a match....

We are all talking about kayfabe though arent we? How fans perceive something.

So please get off your moral high ground.

[The Beltster]

I have to say usually I see Belty's viewpoint but on this one its just ridiculous.

If every pinfall, regardless of what happens is a clear win, then that means every match is a clean win. Which would defeat the whole point of categorising.

This would also mean HHH, Hogan, Austin, etc etc have all made stars out of everyone they've lost to, since they lost cleanly, and it was fair.

Just makes no sense. If you cheat to beat somebody, its a hollow victory, that does more for the loser, than for the winner.

I mean Rock beating Foley at Rumble, clean win?

And we all remember Hogan beating Nash fair and square don't we on Nitro for the title?

Just ridiculous, can't ever agree with you on this.Why does it have to be classed as "rediculous" simply because you disagree and cant see it the way I do? Christ, its hardly rediculous, its simply a differing of opinion.

I'm done with this thread, its pointless trying to even explain it because if people disagree they cant simply say "Hmmmm, I disagree but you are welcome to your opinion." Its more "oh thats retarded!" or "This thread is stupid!".

I cant be bothered. Cheers to Alpha-Male though, he has done a fantastic job or putting his views across. :thumbsup

[Jung]

Why does it have to be classed as "rediculous" simply because you disagree and cant see it the way I do? Christ, its hardly rediculous, its simply a differing of opinion.

I'm done with this thread, its pointless trying to even explain it because if people disagree they cant simply say "Hmmmm, I disagree but you are welcome to your opinion." Its more "oh thats retarded!" or "This thread is stupid!".

I cant be bothered. Cheers to Alpha-Male though, he has done a fantastic job or putting his views across. :thumbsup

I'm only saying its ridiculous because if a clean win is just lying down 1-2-3, then isn't every pinfall win a clean win? Therefore why have a differentiation calling wins clean and dirty if there isn't any difference?

Surely it defeats the point of categorising. Thats all I'm saying. Your entitled to your opinion, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Usually I can at least see some logic but for this I'm lost.

[The Beltster]

I'm only saying its ridiculous because if a clean win is just lying down 1-2-3, then isn't every pinfall win a clean win? Therefore why have a differentiation calling wins clean and dirty if there isn't any difference?No, every pinfall isnt clean, I said this. For example, Bobby Heenan holding the Warriors legs at WMV wasnt clean, Foley pinning Rock down with a forklift wasnt clean. A guy who rolls a guy up in the corner and puts his feet on the ropes for leverage, thats not clean.

HOWEVER, a guy laid out cold in the middle of the ring, regardless of how he got laid out, and who is physically incapable of kicking out, that is clean.

That is my opinion.

[Omega]

I'm only saying its ridiculous because if a clean win is just lying down 1-2-3, then isn't every pinfall win a clean win? Therefore why have a differentiation calling wins clean and dirty if there isn't any difference?

Surely it defeats the point of categorising. Thats all I'm saying. Your entitled to your opinion, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Usually I can at least see some logic but for this I'm lost.

I disagree that every pin is clean, interferance from a manager holding someone would not be clean, holding the ropes is not clean. Get hit and falling over and allowing yourself to pinned as part of your job as a wrestler is clean becuase you allow yourself to get pinned, interferance or no.

Your point comes from seeing it from the kayfabe point of view that a win is in someway important in the scheme of things. Forget that people win and los matches and see the whole thing as a the beautful "work" that it is. In order to fulfuill the job description of a pro-wrestler you must be prepared to "lose" matches and since that is true hold on to that thought. If you must "lose" a match there are many different ways this can happen but by far the most used is pinfall or submission. So that ultimate way to "beat" you opponent is to pin them or make them tap. Every other way is less "definate" (ie the wrestler could be counted out because he is distracted therefore he hasn't "lost" because he was beaten by his opponent) to an audience as there become many more vairables as to why the loss happened, this can hardly be described as "clean" because of the lack of a clarity towards the result.

So if a wrestler allows themselves to be pinned or tap as part of them completeing their match to the bookers decision (ignoring any other factors other than direct interferance with a pin/sub) then that wrestler has "cleanly" alowed the other man to win becuase he (the loser) has not kicked out or in any other made the decision questionable (as whe***er or not the 1,2, 3 was counted and the match ended). Cleanly in this sense means that whether he was flattened by a chair or simply jobbed out with no interferance he put the other man over.

The Dirty side of this view point is the pretty much the same as what dirty means to those in Kayfabe mode, it's just there are less situations which are classed as dirty (ie not pinfall or subs in MOST cases but not all) within the scope of Belty's point of view.

[Darkstar]

So you disagree with beltmark as well then?

[Omega]

No, I agree with both view points....

[Darkstar]

HOWEVER, a guy laid out cold in the middle of the ring, regardless of how he got laid out, and who is physically incapable of kicking out, that is clean.

No, I agree with both view points....

You agree with the above quote, but you also agree with people saying its not true?
Nobody is talking outside of kayfabe except you Alpha.

[Omega]

Why can't I see that both points are as valid. I agree that to an audience a chair shot to win is a dirty win whilst I agree that to the workers in a match and to people who see it from that standpoint then doing the job clean means allowing youself to be pinned 1,2,3.

It appears only other people think I have to agree with one or the other. I persoanly think what I like and try to debate that point without trying to change other peoples minds. I don't have to have other people tell me I'm right to feel might point is entirely valid. You may continue to think what ever makes the most sense to you, thats fair enough isn't it? You don;t have to agree just don't say that I have no point to make or that my thoughts are "ridiculous" or "stupid" as they aren't....

[Darkstar]

I dont give a rats ass what happens to cause it, but if you lay down 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring its a CLEAN JOB, end of story.

If you lose 1-2-3, its a clean pinfall job, IMO. Same with submission/tapout. I dont care how you get to that point, I dont care what happens to cause it, if you lay down for a three or tap, even if you have your foot on the ropes, its a clean loss. There are instances where 1-2-3 losses arent clean, like when Mankind held the Rock down with a forklift, that was stupid. Or, when Heenan held the Warriors legs as the ref counted. But if you are laid out and you get pinned, nobody outside holding you down etc, I consider it clean.


A clean pinfall is when you are laid out on your back in the middle of the right, shoulders down and you are pinned 1-2-3. I dont care if its from a powerbomb, legdrop, DDT, chairshot or an exploding camera, when you are out on your back in the middle of the ring, nobody holding your legs etc, no shoulder up, and the ref slaps the mat 1-2-3, you just lost via clean pinfall.

See Alpha, all in kayfabe terms. See why we are disagreeing with belty? You are saying that he is right, but saying we are when we are arguing the exact opposite.


Im confused. :(

Edit: and change your mind about what? Up to now your arguments have had NOTHINg to do with the actual debate on kayfabe. Only you have talked about outside of kayfabe.

[Omega]

You'd have to ask Belty that, as far as I was concerned when he said JOB that meant in the non-kayfabe sense of "doing the job" ie letting your opponent win because you've been told to. Even if your "debate" was entirely confied to kayfabe that doesn't mean I can't justify my point of view by saying I see things not just in kayfabe but from outside it as well. There's no rule to say I can't do that DS.

If Belty disagrees with that point then thats fair enough as well, I don't actually have to agree with him or you or anyone! I'd need clarification he he was talking stirctly in kayfabe. One might also suggest that since we are discussing the matter with regard to how you define a term then thatmeans that any source of input on that definition is valid?

[Darkstar]

Even if your "debate" was entirely confied to kayfabe that doesn't mean I can't justify my point of view by saying I see things not just in kayfabe but from outside it as well. There's no rule to say I can't do that DS.

Dont make me ban you. ;)


I'd need clarification he he was talking stirctly in kayfabe.

Read the above quotes and tell me he wasnt talking in kayfabe!

Or even better: Belty, are those about kayfabe or not?


So JUST to clarify with you bud, a chairshot leading to you getting pinned is or is not a clean win in kayfabe?

[The Beltster]

I dont even know what my original opinion or current one is any more...

[DC]

The New Year's Revolution WWE title finish would have been clean if Cena had got in significant offense but instead he was booked as being out of his depth with the Samoan Bulldozer.It was a clean finish! I agree with Beltey here, the NYR title finish was clean Bub. There was no interference, no weapon shots, just a roll-up and a three-count.

It's up for discussion becuase this is a forum and so debate in encouraged. Belty actually has a really interesting point if you choose to get down from your ivory tower and give it a go. If you look at wrestling from the actual wrestlers point of view "doing the JOB" means letting your opponent beat you. So whether they use a chair or whether they don't is immaterial because the loser HAS to lay down and be pinned or submitted. therefore the "loss" is down to the losing wrestler staying down for 3 or tapping, Betly's clean win idea.

If however a manager holds a leg or if they losing wrestler gets distracted and gets counted out or DQ'd then thats a "dirty" loss because the match didn't end with the ref counting to 3 or seeing a tap. They don't actually have to do "the JOB" becuase the decision goes against them beyond their "control".You use a non-kayfabe point to illustrate "clean", but then use a kayfabe argument to illustrate a "dirty" (see bolded) finish.

If the manager holds the legs, then surely that was agreed backstage with the wrestlers and/or the booker? Hence it is the same as being pinned without assistance from an outside factor; wrestler A agreeing to lay down for wrestler B.

[Omega]

You use a non-kayfabe point to illustrate "clean", but then use a kayfabe argument to illustrate a "dirty" (see bolded) finish.

If the manager holds the legs, then surely that was agreed backstage with the wrestlers and/or the booker? Hence it is the same as being pinned without assistance from an outside factor; wrestler A agreeing to lay down for wrestler B.

but all finishes (bar screwjobs) are worked out before hand by those invovled so that doesn't make one finish more or less dirty than the other. I know what your saying DC, I do. It's difficult to put my point across as only being about what defines a clean win because people go on about what makes a dirty win and realisticly from the point of view that I'm talking about "dirty" isn't really a term that applies at all.

How about looking at it this way. There is clean jobbing (like i've said before) and then there is "other" jobbing which doesn't require the loser to be pinned or tap by just his opponent. It's not a dirty loss because as you and I agree all things are worked out before hand but bookers/wrestlers so there is no actual cheating going on because that would imply that the result meant something (like in football or rugby).

Perhaps the best thing to say is that the way DS et al have been talking is the result that all wrestlers are working towards, getting the action over to the audience to generate heat for those involved. The way I've been talking about is how you look at what those involved in the match would call having to lose clean or by the "other" way.

Thats why i can agree with both points becuase TO ME I think both points of view can apply to the same incident but not necessarily to the same person.

[Burakiosaurus]

didn't he job to The Genius as well via count out ?? now, i dont care if it was a count out, he jobbed to The Genius .... i mean, come on people! The Genius!!

[The Beltster]

didn't he job to The Genius as well via count out ?? now, i dont care if it was a count out, he jobbed to The Genius .... i mean, come on people! The Genius!!Yup and it was on TV too in a prime time slot on Saturday Nights Main Event. He was WWF champion at the time aswell.

[The.Icon]

Triple H is wrestling John Cena for the World title. Cena hits the FU and makes the cover but HBK breaks up the pin attempt and superkicks Cena. HBK leaves the ringside area and HHH covers Cena. Cena kicks out shortly after he is pinned after a HHH pedigree.

This is NOT a clean win for HHH.

Triple H is wrestling John Cena for the World title. Cena hits the FU and makes the cover, HHH gets His foot on the rope and breaks the pin. Shortly after he is pinned after a HHH pedigree.

This IS a clean win for HHH.

It really doesn't get any more simple. If anybody Manager, Wrestler, other or any weapon or object is used at any time during the match its a dirty / non clean win. And yes Eddie Guerrero wining the world Title was not a clean win Nor was Yokozunas win over Hogan Clean.

[Jung]

But someone interfered in the Yoko/Hogan match helping Yoko win?

Your point makes no sense. You say if HBK helps HHH then leaves, and HHH beats Cena, its not clean. Yet if someone helps Yoko, then leaves and Yoko beats Hogan its clean?

This is why this thread is so confusing, its because people are using strange logic to clarify points. If someone interferes its not clean right?

In my book having some sort of outside help means cheating, thus not clean. Thus interference, feet on ropes, etc = not clean.

But please Kurtmark you've used the same example for 2 things yet one is clean and one isn't. That doesn't make any sense.

[Darkstar]

Nor was Yokozunas win over Hogan Clean.

Yet if someone helps Yoko, then leaves and Yoko beats Hogan its clean?

Ummm, he said it wasnt clean. See? ;)

[Twig]

I think that is someone interferes, but the victim of the attack manages to kick out, and make a comeback, only to ewnd up loosing the match later on without further interferance, that's clean-ish. Yes, the win has been slightly tainted by outside interferance, but the victim managed to overcome that, so it's practically negated.

Yeah, gettin into grey areas now. :devil

[Omega]

I don't get it either to be fair. In terms of a wrestler doinf the job (which means we're talking about outside of kayfabe as the term job is an iniders term) then the perception of clean is surely within the eyes of the performers. So anyone who has to lay down and do the job loses cleanly as opposed to not-clean such as Heenan holding Warrior where Warrior is "prevented" from kicking out so (not-clean and not really a job in the same sense) as opposed to Hogan getting the exploding camera then yoko hitting the legdrop and Hogan not kicking out (when he [I]could[I] have, plenty of people have kicked out after chair/sledgehammer/big bumps) thus doing the job to Yoko.

[Darkstar]

plenty of people have kicked out after chair/sledgehammer/big bumps) thus doing the job to Yoko.

True, but not in WWF at the time of the camera incident.

Off topic: but how can people kick out after chair shot after chair shot, but it only takes 1 belt shot to keep you down? What are the belts made from? :lol

[The Beltster]

To make it as simple as it can be, IMO if nothing is holding the guy down in the middle of the ring barring the person pinning him, its a clean job. I dont care if he got shot, he jobbed clean. Thats how I see it.

What are the belts made from? :lolZinc :)

[Twig]

I don't get it either to be fair. In terms of a wrestler doinf the job (which means we're talking about outside of kayfabe as the term job is an iniders term) then the perception of clean is surely within the eyes of the performers. So anyone who has to lay down and do the job loses cleanly as opposed to not-clean such as Heenan holding Warrior where Warrior is "prevented" from kicking out so (not-clean and not really a job in the same sense) as opposed to Hogan getting the exploding camera then yoko hitting the legdrop and Hogan not kicking out (when he could have, plenty of people have kicked out after chair/sledgehammer/big bumps) thus doing the job to Yoko.

But they wouldn't work out a match without considering the way it's going to be perceived by the viewer. Otherwise what the hell are they doing out there? Just high-impact dancing.

And people can only kick out of a chair/sledgehammer/big bump when they're high-profile wrestlers in a huge match, or in a gimmick-weapons match. Otherwise it'd cheapen the whole impact of a chair/sledgehammer/big bump. And when someone does manage to kick out of a chair/sledgehammer/big bump it's always a huge surprise, and the person still has to sell it like they were just barely able to manage to kick out. So the chair/sledgehammer/big bump was still unfair (unless it's a gimmick-weapons match) as even if they kickout, they're still badly injured, and will be much easier prey.

[The.Icon]

I have seen people kick out of chair shots at 1 and no sell them. (Yes you Hogan.)


If it's a match in which weapons are legal and there is a pinfall with no other people involved it is strictly speaking clean. Although if the fall comes from a weapon shot it isn't it's more a tainted win.

[Twig]

I have seen people kick out of chair shots at 1 and no sell them...
Well, then you're just a bad worker.
...(Yes you Hogan.)
...Oh :-0

[The.Icon]

That was vs Taker I think. However I loved the Hulk up so much I didn't care.

[Twig]

That was vs Taker I think. However I loved the Hulk up so much I didn't care.

Of course ther are extenuating circumstances in the case of unstoppable monsters, dead men, and Hulk Hogan.

[Darkstar]

tanaka no sold chair shots all the time. Mind, that was kinda his gimmick really. :lol

[The.Icon]

Kind of? What else did He have?

[The Beltster]

Hogan didnt no-sell any chairshots, he got nailed with them and he took the bump and went down. He might have kicked out after and Hulked Up, but that was his gimmick, he still sold the initial chairshot. I dont remember Hogan EVER no-selling a chair shot. Ever.

[Omega]

But they wouldn't work out a match without considering the way it's going to be perceived by the viewer. Otherwise what the hell are they doing out there? Just high-impact dancing.

Your actually closer to my point of view than you think. Of course they do it for the audience, thats their job. you also have to see that the audience view point is a completely different kettle of fish to how the werestler sees it....

And people can only kick out of a chair/sledgehammer/big bump when they're high-profile wrestlers in a huge match, or in a gimmick-weapons match. Otherwise it'd cheapen the whole impact of a chair/sledgehammer/big bump. And when someone does manage to kick out of a chair/sledgehammer/big bump it's always a huge surprise, and the person still has to sell it like they were just barely able to manage to kick out. So the chair/sledgehammer/big bump was still unfair (unless it's a gimmick-weapons match) as even if they kickout, they're still badly injured, and will be much easier prey.

Your missing my point that my whole view point is NOT about what the audience percieves in the ring. I'm saying you can define a clean win from the wrestlers point of view as well and that it would be quite different to the audience member. Again this is why I see the two points being equally as valid, it all depends on which way you view it. they won't actually be easier prey becuase they are selling the fact that they are injured, they still have to lay down hence it would be a clean JOB.

Plus no one HAS to sell anything, they only have to follow the booking. If Hogan was supposed to job then he won't kick out but if he doesn't have to (ie like the Taker match) then he doen't have to.

[The.Icon]

Hence the fact we mentioned He hulked up BM, and Hence the fact we said it was His thing. He did no sell one vs Taker though He didn't even go down.

[Twig]

Your actually closer to my point of view than you think. Of course they do it for the audience, thats their job. you also have to see that the audience view point is a completely different kettle of fish to how the werestler sees it....



Your missing my point that my whole view point is NOT about what the audience percieves in the ring. I'm saying you can define a clean win from the wrestlers point of view as well and that it would be quite different to the audience member. Again this is why I see the two points being equally as valid, it all depends on which way you view it. they won't actually be easier prey becuase they are selling the fact that they are injured, they still have to lay down hence it would be a clean JOB.

Plus no one HAS to sell anything, they only have to follow the booking. If Hogan was supposed to job then he won't kick out but if he doesn't have to (ie like the Taker match) then he doen't have to.

I would think that the wrestler loosing would say, yeah I got pinned, but to everyone who saw it, I was cheated out of the victory. That doesn't put over the winner as better, but rather establishes him as a cheater.

My point is that how it's perceived by the audience would strongly effect the wrestlers feelings about loosing.

[The Beltster]

I have seen people kick out of chair shots at 1 and no sell them. (Yes you Hogan.)You said this first, insinuating Hogan no sold chair shots for no reason, disregarding the fact it was his gimmick to kick out of a finish etc

Hence the fact we mentioned He hulked up BM, and Hence the fact we said it was His thing. He did no sell one vs Taker though He didn't even go down.So why crap on him for kicking out after a chairshot and then go on to defend him saying it was his gimmick? Makes no sense.

When did he no sell a Taker chair shot, I dont remember that at all. One has popped into my head, and that was when Davari hit him on the back at WM21 and he no-sold it, he might have no sold shots by guys like Heenan and Jimmy Hart over the years too but I dont remember. When it comes to wrestlers though, I dont remember him ever no-selling a shot from a weapon.

[The.Icon]

It was at the Title changing Royal Rumble match. He clearly no sold a chairshot.

[The Beltster]

It was at the Title changing Royal Rumble match. He clearly no sold a chairshot.Are you talking about 1992 when Flair won the belt by winning the Rumble?

[The.Icon]

Are you talking about 1992 when Flair won the belt by winning the Rumble?

No This one

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8815/tombstonezv0.jpg

It's hard to see the chair but Hogan gets tombstoned on it.

[Jung]

Lol not really though the same though is it?

Not like it was a Balls Mahoney style shot to the noggin?

In fairness to Hogan he always sold really well, losing or not, thus don't think that could ever be argued. You want to see no selling, was it LOD on Raw against RVD where Hawk virtually no sold the frog splash?

[The.Icon]

Yes that was the worst no sell ever Jung.

[The Beltster]

No This one

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8815/tombstonezv0.jpg

It's hard to see the chair but Hogan gets tombstoned on it.That was the Survivor Series, not the Rumble, and I know Hogan gets tombstoned on it, and what happens? He loses the match, 1-2-3. How can you say thats no-selling, he stayed laid out in the ring for about 10 minutes and all the 'medics' came out from the back and had to physically help Hogan to the back!

Thats pretty much the best sell job going, how is that no-selling?! :?

[The.Icon]

I must be confusing my matches, and if I am then I am sorry and admit I am wrong. What I recalled was Hogan popped up before the Three?

[Jung]

Isn't that what Belty argued though, the super human comeback?

He still took the shot and went down, thus he sold it.

[Darkstar]

I would think that the wrestler loosing would say, yeah I got pinned, but to everyone who saw it, I was cheated out of the victory. That doesn't put over the winner as better, but rather establishes him as a cheater.

My point is that how it's perceived by the audience would strongly effect the wrestlers feelings about loosing.

Every worker I have known and spoke to about anything like this talks about it in a mix of kayfabe and reality.

'Oh Im losing clean to Rob'

'I get a dirty win over Sam'

Are examples of how I hear it said.

[The.Icon]

Do we all agree Khali is a no seller ;)

[The Beltster]

I must be confusing my matches, and if I am then I am sorry and admit I am wrong. What I recalled was Hogan popped up before the Three?No, Hogan got dropped on it and laid there for ages, he sold it for ages laid in the ring, he could barely walk to the back and they made out he could have broken his neck before he finally stood up. He never popped up after it, he popped up after a tombstone earlier in the match and Hulked Up because he had to fit the Hulk Up into the match knowing he wasnt going to do it after the chair.

http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o133/chrisppage/?action=view&current=HoganTaker.flv

However, like Jung said, even if he did kick out after a chair shot, he still sold it in the first place by going down. Look at SummerSlam 2005, HBK levelled him with a chair and he went down hard. Sure, he kicked out and Hulked Up after, but thats his gimmick, he still sold the initial shot. Hogan pretty much sold for 70% of his matches barring his gimmick comeback.

[Omega]

Every worker I have known and spoke to about anything like this talks about it in a mix of kayfabe and reality.

'Oh Im losing clean to Rob'

'I get a dirty win over Sam'

Are examples of how I hear it said.

what about "oh, I'm having to job to so and so"? I say that only becuase I think you can merge the word job with the definition of clean that I've mentioned. For instance the Yoko/Hulk thing Hulk would say "I'm having to job to that lard ass" where as Warrior might have said "I'm having to get pinned with Heenan holding my legs" (ok so he probably would have just growled and shouted then walked out but you get what I mean....)

In that instance then Warrior isn't really jobbing per say becuase he is pinned unfairly where as Hogan had to lay down for 3 for Yoko when there would be room for a kickout if the booking allowed it.

Again this is from the point of view of the men in the ring and not the paying audience except maybe the uber-smarky! :D

[The Franchise]

It was a clean finish! And come on, you were the one going on and on about Hogan stealing Warriors thunder etc, dont ignore everything I said if you are so clever, tell me I'm wrong...

I mean lets keep it real Hogan was SO over for so many years it got a little ridiculous. Flair not only faced better wrestlers than Hogan he also was a hell of alot more gracious than Hogan has been over the years when it came to giving back to pro wrestling. Why do you think just about 96% of the wrestling world say that Ric Flair is the greatest of all time?

Hogan is one of the all time greats. No doubt. But Flair has helped make careers a hell of a lot more than Hogan has. Especially when it came to CLEAN jobs in pro wrestling. When was the last time you seen the entire WWE locker room empty out and give Hogan a party in his honor to say thanks for everything? Never. Did the same happen for Ric Flair? Yep. Enough said right there.:thumbsup

[The Beltster]

I mean lets keep it real Hogan was SO over for so many years it got a little ridiculous. Flair not only faced better wrestlers than Hogan he also was a hell of alot more gracious than Hogan has been over the years when it came to giving back to pro wrestling. Why do you think just about 96% of the wrestling world say that Ric Flair is the greatest of all time? So you are blaming Hogan for being over? How is it rediculous? The guy is over, HUGE over, and has tons of longevity...thats rediculous?! How?! And who says Flair faced better wrestlers? You? Hogan fought tons of great wrestlers, easily on par with the wrestlers Flair fought, no doubt.

And what do you mean he was more gracious?! Hogan jobbed when it was the right time to do so, and when he did it meant more, when Flair jobbed it meant something at first, then he allowed himself to be jobbed so much it cheapened him and made him look like a joke, like Hogan looked in 2002.

And huh? 96% of the wrestling world say that, do they? Where exactly did you come up with 96%? :lol :roll Edge says 50% of the wrestlers he knows wanted to become wrestlers because of Hulk Hogan, so does that mean Hulk Hogan has influenced 50% of the wrestling world?

Hogan is one of the all time greats. No doubt. But Flair has helped make careers a hell of a lot more than Hogan has. Especially when it came to CLEAN jobs in pro wrestling. When was the last time you seen the entire WWE locker room empty out and give Hogan a party in his honor to say thanks for everything? Never. Did the same happen for Ric Flair? Yep. Enough said right there.:thumbsupHogans job wasnt to make careers!!!! His job was to make the WWF alot of money, his job was to have the company built on his back and carry them to international fame, which he did in a big way. Hogans job wasnt to get Ted DiBiase over, it wasnt to get Honky Tonk Man over, it was to be the face of a company which was nationally and internationally expanding!

And so because the entire locker room emptied out ONCE to give Flair a thankyou party inhis hometown, that means Flair is the greatest?! LMFAO! Wow, thats some pretty retarded logic right there! It was a nice gesture by the locker room towards a legend in his home town, that was it. Cena and Batista put both the WWE and World titles on Hogan after RAW went off the air in several cities throughout 2005, does that mean anything or make any difference? Of course it doesnt, its just a nice gesture. End of story.

[The Franchise]

So you are blaming Hogan for being over? How is it rediculous? The guy is over, HUGE over, and has tons of longevity...thats rediculous?! How?! And who says Flair faced better wrestlers? You? Hogan fought tons of great wrestlers, easily on par with the wrestlers Flair fought, no doubt.

And what do you mean he was more gracious?! Hogan jobbed when it was the right time to do so, and when he did it meant more, when Flair jobbed it meant something at first, then he allowed himself to be jobbed so much it cheapened him and made him look like a joke, like Hogan looked in 2002.

And huh? 96% of the wrestling world say that, do they? Where exactly did you come up with 96%? :lol :roll Edge says 50% of the wrestlers he knows wanted to become wrestlers because of Hulk Hogan, so does that mean Hulk Hogan has influenced 50% of the wrestling world?

Hogans job wasnt to make careers!!!! His job was to make the WWF alot of money, his job was to have the company built on his back and carry them to international fame, which he did in a big way. Hogans job wasnt to get Ted DiBiase over, it wasnt to get Honky Tonk Man over, it was to be the face of a company which was nationally and internationally expanding!

And so because the entire locker room emptied out ONCE to give Flair a thankyou party inhis hometown, that means Flair is the greatest?! LMFAO! Wow, thats some pretty retarded logic right there! It was a nice gesture by the locker room towards a legend in his home town, that was it. Cena and Batista put both the WWE and World titles on Hogan after RAW went off the air in several cities throughout 2005, does that mean anything or make any difference? Of course it doesnt, its just a nice gesture. End of story.

If you put Ric Flair's track record side by side with Hogan's you know that Flair clearly has proven more in pro wrestling that Hulk Hogan has. Flair is the greatest of all time. I mean lets face it, Hogan is in the Hall of Fame and he hardly wrestles.

And hes allowed to beat guys like HBK and Randy Orton in back to back Summerslams? But yet Flair wrestles damn near every single week still and hes way older than Hogan is. But yet Ric Flair isnt in the Hall of fame? Take a poll and prepare to be humbled BeltMark.:devil

[Darkstar]

what about "oh, I'm having to job to so and so"? I say that only becuase I think you can merge the word job with the definition of clean that I've mentioned. For instance the Yoko/Hulk thing Hulk would say "I'm having to job to that lard ass" where as Warrior might have said "I'm having to get pinned with Heenan holding my legs" (ok so he probably would have just growled and shouted then walked out but you get what I mean....)

In that instance then Warrior isn't really jobbing per say becuase he is pinned unfairly where as Hogan had to lay down for 3 for Yoko when there would be room for a kickout if the booking allowed it.

Again this is from the point of view of the men in the ring and not the paying audience except maybe the uber-smarky! :D

Basicly to job JUST means to lose. Jobbing clean or dirty means just that. losing clean, or dirty. Fair or by a cheat.

[The Beltster]

If you put Ric Flair's track record side by side with Hogan's you know that Flair clearly has proven more in pro wrestling that Hulk Hogan has. Flair is the greatest of all time. I mean lets face it, Hogan is in the Hall of Fame and he hardly wrestles.Rubbish, the variety of opponents you wrestle doesnt prove anything in pro wrestling, if it did then the Brooklyn Brawler, who has wrestled damn near every wrestler who has worked for Vince in the past 20 years, would be classed as a superstar, right? Exactly. The only track record that means bugger all in pro wrestling when it comes to who is the greatest, is money, business and success, and Hogan has got more money, done more business and had more success than Flair could ever DREAM OF!

Hogan is in the HoF because he made the company, Flair is now wrestling in the House that Hogan built, because the House Flair built was ripped down, by Hogan, when they were head to head! Face it.

And hes allowed to beat guys like HBK and Randy Orton in back to back Summerslams? But yet Flair wrestles damn near every single week still and hes way older than Hogan is. But yet Ric Flair isnt in the Hall of fame? Take a poll and prepare to be humbled BeltMark.:devilExactly, what does that tell you about Hogan compared to Flair? It shows that Hogan is classed as a much bigger star than Flair, because Hogan can still come in, main event and go over, and Flair is jobbing to Rico clean 1-2-3 or stuck in a nothing midcard feud with Carlito. Wow! Oh, and Flair ONLY wrestles every week because he is broke. Hogan doesnt need to, because he is a much better businesman than Flair and has made tons more money due to him being a much bigger draw and a much bigger star.

[DC]

No This one

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8815/tombstonezv0.jpg

It's hard to see the chair but Hogan gets tombstoned on it.As has been said, that was Survivor Series 1991. Hogan kicked out of the first (non-chair assisted) Tombstone, but later sold the second (on a chair) like he had broken his neck.
What is the purpose of this thread?What makes a clean win and what makes a dirty win. You seem to be discussing who is better, Hogan or Flair, which was the thread this was lifted from.

[The Franchise]

Exactly, what does that tell you about Hogan compared to Flair? It shows that Hogan is classed as a much bigger star than Flair, because Hogan can still come in, main event and go over, and Flair is jobbing to Rico clean 1-2-3 or stuck in a nothing midcard feud with Carlito. Wow! Oh, and Flair ONLY wrestles every week because he is broke. Hogan doesnt need to, because he is a much better businesman than Flair and has made tons more money due to him being a much bigger draw and a much bigger star.

But yet who's still wrestling full time and who can barely get out of bed day in and day out? Flair is broke? Duh. The divorce from his ex-wife Beth had a huge hand in that BeltMark. Either way you cut it Hogan may have been the better business man than Flair but real wrestling fans knows who the better of the two TRULY is:Flair.:worship

[The Franchise]

As has been said, that was Survivor Series 1991. Hogan kicked out of the first (non-chair assisted) Tombstone, but later sold the second (on a chair) like he had broken his neck.
What makes a clean win and what makes a dirty win. You seem to be discussing who is better, Hogan or Flair, which was the thread this was lifted from.

Gotcha D.C.:xyx

[Omega]

Basicly to job JUST means to lose. Jobbing clean or dirty means just that. losing clean, or dirty. Fair or by a cheat.

Ok so to job just means to lose, I agree with that but jobbing clean or not clean is a different thing. So all my previous explanations follow on from Belty's first post which was about Hogan JOBBING clean (go and have a look ;) ). The thread isn't called what is a clean win so my point of view is that the definition we're discussing doesn't have to have anything to do with audience perception because the audience doesn't see a JOB they see a win/loss. Jobbing is definatly an outside of kayfabe thing so thats where I'm looking at this from....

[Darkstar]

Im sorry Omega, Im not following your point. Workers (except those Belty alone has worked with it seems) see clean or dirty jobs, and job is 100% just the workers term for loss. So when someone says 'I saw HHH lose fair' then backstage HHH is saying 'I am jobbing clean'.

Its as easy as that. JOB means LOSE. CLEAN means FAIR. DIRTY means UNFAIR.
See, interchangeable.

[The Beltster]

But yet who's still wrestling full time and who can barely get out of bed day in and day out? Flair is broke? Duh. The divorce from his ex-wife Beth had a huge hand in that BeltMark. Either way you cut it Hogan may have been the better business man than Flair but real wrestling fans knows who the better of the two TRULY is:Flair.:worshipYes, Flair is still wrestling at 57 yrs old and having to beat and batter himself every night for whatever WWE give him whereas Hogan can enjoy his later years lounging around at home, coming and going as he pleases for the money he asks for and has the luxery of turning Vince down if he doesnt feel the offer is adequate. Flair is broke because he is crap with money, always has been. He needed Jimmy Crockett to bail him out with the I.R.S to the tune of millions of dollars in the 1980's. His divorce hurt him sure, but he has always been a big spender and will never be rich like he should be.

[Omega]

Im sorry Omega, Im not following your point. Workers (except those Belty alone has worked with it seems) see clean or dirty jobs, and job is 100% just the workers term for loss. So when someone says 'I saw HHH lose fair' then backstage HHH is saying 'I am jobbing clean'.

Its as easy as that. JOB means LOSE. CLEAN means FAIR. DIRTY means UNFAIR.
See, interchangeable.

Well I personaly think you can see it differently but I do appreciate that the majority of people see it your way and I have stated that I would to. I guess thats that then as we're on to Flairs bank balance....

[Mister LJ]

I believe its things like this that has hurt pro wrestling. You shouldn't be watching a match just to see if someone jobs to your favorite star. It takes away all the excitement when people analyze every single detail that goes on in the business.