Move problems...

[Evil Gringo]

I've noticed that we have a problem with moves in the e-fed...

Our trainees, Thirteen in particular has finishers (and I mean in any sense, I mean Triple Brainbuster and Top Rope Stunner?) as his signatures and also Apollo Chambers has the Busaiku Knee Kick as a normal move... the very same move I have as the Cap It Off and have over as one of my more deadly moves...

He has it I repeat, as a normal throw away move...

"The Only ICON That Matters" Daniel Strong has moves like the Dragon Suplex and the Tiger suplex as normal moves... the same Dragon Suplex that Boyo has as his special occasion finisher and several wrestlers have as trademarks as well.... It's also a finisher in nearly every promotion world wide!

Others have the Sharpshooter as a trademark whilst Dante has the very move that made Holt tap for the first and only time to make him champion (Vampiric Embrace aka Scorpion Deathlock aka Sharpshooter) as his main submission finisher...

I could go on but in terms of valuing moves and understanding the impact of them and how a match is shaped by them I feel the roster is slipping.

[Sparrow]

Well Thirten does not write anymore so that is ok, I will upgrade the Knee kick to a sig move then. I like the move and wanted it in my move set.

As for the others can't really comment.

[Fletch]

Sorry Grings, but i feel its a bit over dramatic. I think in certain instances, certain moves yeah, if people have them as normal moves, it takes away from someone using it as a finisher.

But then each guy on this roster is meant to be an individual with their own style, and with it comes a varying degree of individuality. For example:

Chris Benoit has the sharpshooter as pretty much his third finisher, Bret Hart used it, as his finisher. For the Rock, its a standard move in his limited but entertaining repotoire. Who was the last person you saw tap out to The Rock?

More examples, I think submissions must be on the brain. Walls Of Jericho is a finisher, but its just an elevated Boston Crab, how many guys use Boston Crabs or half Crabs? Shedloads!

I just think that its being made more than it is, because people can put their own style and stuff on certain moves, like each wrestler in the real world tries to do. if they all did the same moves the same way, wrestling would be highly boring.

[Evil Gringo]

The reason the Rock never got many tap outs where because of cut offs in tag matches, ref bumps and also because it was a horrid version used in tribute to his friend Owen Hart...

Oh and the last person I saw tap to it was Christain...

And I'm not being over dramatic... If some has got a move over or has had it for ages (like Boyo's Welsh Dragon Suplex) and then somebody put its down buy just having it as a normal move like a body slam or an elbow strike is stupid...

A different version is ok because it is a modification of an idea to make it superior but a straight out copy that is placed below the other one in direct effectivness whould not be allowed in the WWE.

You do not use another persons finisher or over move unless its part of a storyline... you do not use a move that some else does without it having the same effect... Example, the Chokeslam, Frog Splash, Brainbuster (Eddie and Kash used them as finisher level moves)....

Its not drama, its realism.

[Fletch]

Why cant two people have the same finisher though, with different names? Was Eddie Guerrero the only wrestler to ever use the Frog Splash? Is Kane the only guy that uses a chokeslam?

The answer to those is no. If you want realism, then WWE dont exactly turn to Ken Kennedy and say, you can't do a top Rope Senton Bomb, that's what Jeff Hardy uses!

[Evil Gringo]

They are on different shows so it is allowed in the WWE... but if twp people have the same finish in the company and are on the same show then usually they have to change it...

Also what I said was that if someone uses a move then another person who uses that move would have to treat it with the same respect, this is the same the world over... In Japan, The US, Europe etc etc...

Plus the idea of having the Dragon Suplex, the finisher of many Japanese champions, a move banned in the WWE and one regarded as as near damn a match ender in any fed (and in this one) as a 'normal move', on a par with chops etc?

Not on. Silly even, just silly.

[DC]

They are on different shows so it is allowed in the WWE... but if twp people have the same finish in the company and are on the same show then usually they have to change it...I counter that with the powerbomb. Many guys use/used it as their finisher, with Sid and Diesel both using it at the same time being the most high-profile I can think off. Same with 'Taker and Kane using the Tombstone, but that made storyline sense.

The chokeslam, clothesline, legdrop, t-bone suplex and german suplex are other great examples of moves that are one level for Wrestler A but a different level for Wrestler B.

The DDT is probably THE best example of a move that can be fine in both camps.

The old adage of the person who has it as a finisher applying it better than those who don't stands true here.

[TGO]

Gringo has a point though I had to drop the first Eagles Wings as it was the same as Drake Rush (sit down face buster).

[TMJ]

DC has a point too though...

[Evil Gringo]

But its not a case of people finishes being abused this time however... its the complete devaluing of moves...

If one move is a signature of another or seen as a move worthy of a hot near fall then how can it be a throw away for another... Even if a T-Bone is a finisher for some else you can guarantee that the other person who uses it in a none finsiher capacity will still respect it with a hot fall, not just a throw away move like an elbow...

Ergo as well... Reason Nash and Sid did a powerbomb? They where big, unskilled and generic in move set...

Come on surely eveyone can see how insane it is to have some use a Dragon Suplex as a normal move when some one in the very same e-fed has it as a rarely used, chief impact finisher?

Or am I being a little too rational?

[TGO]

Didn't we have something like this over the superkick ?

I know on training there is a list of finishers no one can use, so surely no one should be using a finisher as anything at all going by the list.

[Edgemaster006]

It's funny Gringo should mention it, seeing as i took the Anaconda Vice out of my profile just to make sure it gelled with Gringo's.

Twiggs, if you have a problem with my moves, lemme know so i can change them. Otherwise, they stay as they are.

[Fidel Cashflow]

It's funny Gringo should mention it, seeing as i took the Anaconda Vice out of my profile just to make sure it gelled with Gringo's.

Twiggs, if you have a problem with my moves, lemme know so i can change them. Otherwise, they stay as they are.

Bro, you really do need to get better acquainted with the roster, or maybe it was just a brain-fart (as it was very specifically stated earlier), but it’s Boyo who uses the Dragon Suplex as his “OMG IM GONNA PWNZ U” finisher.

And seeing as how it’s just a throw-away move in your profile, it’s hardly anything for you to drop it.

[Edgemaster006]

Bro, you really do need to get better acquainted with the roster, or maybe it was just a brain-fart (as it was very specifically stated earlier), but it’s Boyo who uses the Dragon Suplex as his “OMG IM GONNA PWNZ U” finisher.

And seeing as how it’s just a throw-away move in your profile, it’s hardly anything for you to drop it.

I AM ABOVE PAYING ATTENTION DAMMIT!

And I changed it anyway. Tiger and Dragon suplexes are off my profile.

Gringo, you profile hog, you. :P

[The B-Man]

I think there are a lot of issues. One thing though it depends on the persons ability and two it depends how over the move is

[Omega]

The spear and the Gore, whats the difference toher than that if you get Gored your dead an you'll probably kick out of a spear.. does it devalue the Gore, no. The Vampiric Embrace is the same, Everyone who has it less than a finisher means the will probably escape or reach the ropes or counter (which happened to Bret enough times) but the VE is locked in so well there's little or no chance...

Sme with Dragon Suplex, in other situations it;s a finsiher becuase of the skill of the wrestler with that move. I say so long as it's not pisstake (ie a top rope powerbomb as a normal move) then it's not the end of the world of there are bits of replication. Gringo you must remember that your profile has twice the number of moves as everyone else. You have the Ode to Eddie and Helms has the Five star frog splash, so you should drop that becuase he has it?

[DC]

The dragon-suplex is not seen as a finisher outside Japan for the most part, with the exception of Jay Lethal's (terrible) version of it.

Benoit used it a few times in WWE as a (upper-level) standard move, but it's rarely been a finisher in the US.

As for the frog-splash, I have a version of it in my moveset, yet it is rarely the finish for a singles match.

[The B-Man]

Gore and Spear are two different moves by the way. The Gore you will see when hit properly Rhino will leave his feet where as the spear is more of a takedown.

[Omega]

Edge uses a no footed spear and it's called a spear not a Gore.... Even saying that they are still 99% basically the same move. what about the Pounce? It's basically a shoulder tackle, a move used to start many many matches across the globe. If Monty Brown does it though it's a finisher....

DC makes an excleent point about the Dragon Suplex and wh/where a move is performed. We aren't a Puro company so why would the dragon Suplex be seen as a major move? (excluding that Boyo has stated that it;s one of his finsihers and therefore in that one instance it is treated as such...)

[Boyo]

My view on the situation of moves sharing (seeing it is the Dragon Suplex we're talking about here), is this:

When picking and choosing your normal, throwaway moves, ensure that no-one else on the roster uses it as their main or special finisher.

I notice quite a lot of people (especially the trainees) include the Cloverleaf in their "Normal Moves". When this happens, I ask them to upgrade it to a "Signature" at the very least. My reasoning being that you may be able to do a Cloverleaf at a decent "signature" level, but you damned well cannot do a Cloverleaf as well as me.

If you use a Cloverleaf as a "normal" move then seeing as I use it to make people tap, then your version must be rank, and you might as well not use it.

As for the Dragon Suplex; well that is a pretty kick-a$$ move and no-one, not even Suplex King Strong, or Taz, or Kurt Angle, Benoit or Chavo would use it as a "normal" move. Again, I have no problem with someone using it as a "signature" move; as we already know that my version will be better than yours :P.

Because of the fact that scouring everyone's profiles when choosing moves is a long and arduous task, try to keep your normal moves to punches, kicks and slaps, will you!? :lol

Cheers!

[Omega]

The other factor in this is that the is a finite amount of "big" moves out there and also the fatc that lot of new moves are basic variations of older moves.

My basic opinion in a simnoplistic form is that suplexes can't really be thought of as "special" and therefore kept to a certain elite few. If you'd like to have a suplex finsiher then it's all good, like Boyo said with his cloverleaf, you obviously hit it better than someone else who has it at sig level or lower. A highly technical wrestler might have several suplex variants at sig level and lower but that should take away from someone who uses one of those moves as a finisher.

There are always goign to be points where moves "cross over2 between profiles, it''s as simple as that. As the training co-ordinator I try hard to make sure there aren't 6 people all using the Anaconda Vice or the F5 as finshers but at the same time you can't deny epople the oppertunity to use some moves in different levels of their profile. If we're going to go down that route then I'm making sure Gringo slims down his profile by at least 1/3! :lol

[Evil Gringo]

Right this is my move list....

Normal Moves
Snap Suplex - Normal move
Slingshot Hilo - Normal move
Middle Kick - Normal
High Kick - Normal
Back Suplex - Normal as its not a Backdrop, just flatback WWE version
Snap Side Belly to Belly Suplex - Normal
Exploder Suplex - Akyiama uses it like hell as almost a throwaway these days and he is the king of the move
Kick Flurry - Normal
Springboard Legdrop - Normal, only Rey uses it now and again as a finisher and that was only in the WWE
Springboard Dropkick - Only Ohanti used it as a finisher back in 1994... its a strike based move, its normal
Double Arm DDT - Rarely use anymore.... maybe should delete it
Dropsault - Normal
Enziguri - Normal, not a BIG move since Inoki and nobody bought Jericho's as a finish anyhow...
Knee Strikes - Normal
Elbow Strikes - Normal
Throat Chops - Normal
Flying Shouderblock - Normal except the lame ass Pounce...
Running knee in corner - Normal

Signature Move(s)
Tribute To Muto (Shining Wizard) - Muta takes five to finish a match on average so its a sig at best...
Skull Burner (Double Underhook Canadian Backbreaker flipped into Double Arm sitout driver) - My own creation, a sig of mine when I wrestled...
Ode To Guerrero (Frog Splash) - Rarely used, only against bigger men or in tribute to Eddie like v Gower in the Lucha match
GringoKick (Capo/Liger Kick) - Sig, maybe even as much as a normal...
GringoKick Mk II (Triangle Jump Enziguri) - Sig move as its a supped up normal one...
The Spanish Fly (Somersault Plancha) - Sig
Mexican Airforce Airstrike or M.A.A. (Springboard Forearm) - Sig of AJ Styles and sig of mine...
Gringo-plex MkI (Pumphandle, Half Nelson Suplex) - Own self created signature suplex
Gringo-plex MkII (Half Nelson, Hammerlock Suplex) - Ditto
Falcon Arrow (also know for a falcon arrow off the top or apron as well) - Sig
Triangle Lancer (Neck and arm take down into an inverted Strangle Hold Gamma) - Sig
Cap It Off (Busaiku knee kick) - KENTA's main finisher now is the Go2Sleep so this is a sig

Finishing Move(s)
Shock Therapy (Electric Chair lift which is then flipped into a Cross Armed Sit Out Driver, Gringo's chief impact finisher) - My own invention

Death Star Press (SSP turning in mid-air into a cross body block on a standing victim, can be done in suicide dive version as well as Springboard, Gringo's go to move when in a tight situation) - My own invention

The GringoLock (Anaconda Vice) which can be turned into The Aztecan Crucification... (Anaconda Cross...) here the Gringo also grasps the other free arm making it harder to escape... - Submission finish in ECW, DG and NJPW as well as won matches in AJPW

This is a cut down list of what I used to have but everything is proportioned and I've had this list (bar the Falcon Arrow) for nearly a year now so it is set and over...

So where oh where is the problem with mine?

[Omega]

12 signature moves perhaps? Is that not a little over the top? Most people would have maybe 4 -5 and bust at least 80% of those out in a match... Dude, I'm not going to get into an arguement about it with you, I did put a smilie at the end of my sentance because IT WAS A JOKE! I'd ask the question about how often you bust out all 12 of those moves? Do you REALLY need all of them, if you think so then fair do's it's your profile but remember that each time you add a new move and don't remove one (I know you have in the past) that it makes it that much harder for the new guys to find original moves...

Bottom line here is that unless it's a multiple replication of an already used FINISHER I'm not adverse to letting people have a certain moves that exist in other people's profiles already IF it's not too much of similarity. If a finsher is replicated in someone's Sig moves then the assumption is that whilst the move is good it is no where near as well executed as the other person's finsher version of it. If a finsher is i someones Normal move list then I TRY to get them to upgrade it to a sig move BUT if the move is, in my opinion, a fairly generic move (ie, a lot of basic submissions, suplex variants etc) then I believe it falls into the first catagory.

If there is a huge problem with that then I suggest that someone else can spend their time wading through EVERYONES profile each time someone signs up to the fed becuase after looking through 12 sig moves for one person it can get a bit repetative. I'm not the memory man and can't remember all them moves people have and in what list they have it. I only did the finsiher list becuase it helped me have a refernce for the big moves that really shouldn't be copied if at all possible...

end of rant and begining of reprisals....

[Evil Gringo]

Look at AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels as real life examples... they both have two finishers and at least 12 moves that each could call signature that bust out in dfferent situations dependent on the opponent and a few they do every match...

If you read my matches you'd see my movelist is modelled and used in the same manner...

But as for the move situation in regards to classification I'd say, you'd have that idea about right. That was my orignal point after all, the use of peoples sigs and finishers by other people as normal moves.

You've addressed that and so have others in a constructive way and because of that I'm happy.

[The B-Man]

I have about the same amount of sig move. I think of a sig move as not a move always done, which it is really. I think of it more of a bigger than normal move just.

[Fidel Cashflow]

Thought I'd just compile a list of AJ's signatures. I think I got them all.

Leap-frog/drop kick combo
Styles effect DDT
Swan dive plancha
Vaulting press
Fosberry Flop
Pump-handle gut buster
Vertical suplex-neckbreaker
Torture rack/spinning rack bomb
Spring board forearm strike
Nip-up rana
Springboard 450 splash
Hammerlock-back suplex
Roaring clothesline
Brainbuster
Pele kick
Cliffhanger
Shooting Star Plancha

EDIT: Woops, for got the SSP plancha

[Sparrow]

Don't you guys with all the sig moves think it is a little unfair on the other guys? you get all these moves that you want.


I am ok with my moveset, but others may want as many sig moves as you guys and are getting turned down.

[Fidel Cashflow]

Don't you guys with all the sig move think it is a little unfair on the other guys? you get all these moves that you want.

There are a rediculous amount of moves out there dude. Don't focus on the popular ones.

Look through any wrestling video-encyclopedia and find some scare indy/puro/mexican moves that you think are baller, and see if they work with your profile.

[Sparrow]

There are a rediculous amount of moves out there dude. Don't focus on the popular ones.

Look through any wrestling video-encyclopedia and find some scare indy/puro/mexican moves that you think are baller, and see if they work with your profile.

Huh? I don't get what you are saying, Ii said I was happy with my moveset.

I was just saying some people may want more but are getting turned down.

[Fidel Cashflow]

Huh? I don't get what you are saying, Ii said I was happy with my moveset.

I was just saying some people may want more but are getting turned down.

if they want more moves it'd be better than getting the atypical if they went and looked for some different moves.

[Sparrow]

if they want more moves it'd be better than getting the atypical if they went and looked for some different moves.

Ahh ok, cleared that up.

Look i did'nt want to get involved as i don't know why these two have all those sig moves. So i had my little imput.:thumbsup :xyx

[Omega]

The other side of having more than say 5 sig moves is that on the training board we aren't allowing anyone to have more than 5-6 maximum. Obviously as guys who have been here for a long time your moveset will evolve and new moves will be added, which is all gravy. What I'd like to see is some of the moves which maybe you don't use very often being retired out. I know I've changed at least 2 of my sig moves but I've "exchanged" 2 older moves for them. So in essance there are still the same number of moves out there to choose from.

It's all about balance, I try to get the newbies to go to Wrestlingencyclopedia.com or it's puro sister site a find moves from there as it's a goldmine of little used moves. (For instance one of our trainees has picked up Shaun O'Haire old finisher The Prophecy). That way less toes are trod on and there's usually a link they can put in the profile to show what the moves is! :)

[Twig]

It's all about balance, I try to get the newbies to go to Wrestlingencyclopedia.com or it's puro sister site a find moves from there as it's a goldmine of little used moves. (For instance one of our trainees has picked up Shaun O'Haire old finisher The Prophecy). That way less toes are trod on and there's usually a link they can put in the profile to show what the moves is! :)

Christof has also posted an excellent site, with no video, but with really great descriptions of moves that allow you to visualize it well, and therefore decribie it in a match easily. It's bookmarked in the Help & Feedback section, and linked right here (http://www.talkwrestlingonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22181)

[The B-Man]

I don't think the moves thing is an issue baring finishers.

There are a lot of common moves used by every wrestler. Surely the whole thing about other moves are that it makes them unique so half the roster doing a sharpshooter wouldn't be, but a spinebuster or a suplex is fine.

[Twig]

I don't think the moves thing is an issue baring finishers.

There are a lot of common moves used by every wrestler. Surely the whole thing about other moves are that it makes them unique so half the roster doing a sharpshooter wouldn't be, but a spinebuster or a suplex is fine.

Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. But with out ever growing roster, we'll soon find out that wrestling encyclopedia is actually a fairly small collection of moves.

[Omega]

I think the final clarification is that Finishers are the only things that should not be replecated if at all possible. If some chooses a move that used by lots of wrestlers in real life then they will have to accept that lots of people here may choose it as only a sig move or even normal move (dependant on the actual move, of course). Of course attempts will be made to make sure things aren't dumbed down to the extreme....

[The B-Man]

Another thing is it shouldn't be a problem is there is a different variety of wrestler.

How many out and out big men is there on the roster?

How many high flyers?

How many tecnical masters?

Know what I mean?

[Omega]

Good point, but we aren't exactly blessed with cruiser types as afed so a lot of power moves (suplexes, bombs, drivers etc) are used more often than the high flying moves. I'd certainly welcome an influx of light heavyweights to the fred rather than the "average" builds which predominate...