wrestling v sports entertaiment. [Archive]

Jack_Halewood

12-04-2002, 05:12 PM

I know exactly how this will go because most fans in the UK are kids who don't evem know the difference between Wrestling and Sports Entertainment, hell, they think they are one and the same. Of course, there should be SOME people who care about tradition, about all the people who gave everything they had to make wrestling respected, until Vince McMahon spat on their faces, the grave of his father, the careers of Lou Thesz, Frank Gotch and numerous others when he created Sports Entertainment. What kind of human being would disgrace their own father's grave, a father who gave Vince one of the bets possible upbringings with a very rich livelihood?

Jayden

12-04-2002, 05:26 PM

This is diffcult for me, as I really feel I want a combination of both.

When the sports entertainment stuff is done well I actually like it, unfortunately I don't feel anyone is doing it all that well at the moment, whether it be WWF/XPW or any other US promotion I've seen.

Hmmm, how should I vote.

Hosgood

12-04-2002, 05:41 PM

This really pisses me off when people refer to WRESTLING as the bit when two guys get in the ring which starts and ends when the bell rings. Before sports entertainment was invente wrestling still had storylines, feuds, angles, promos etc. The term sports entertainment was invented by Vince McMahon as an excuse to have far more soap opera and a lot less wrestling matches. If anyone asks Vince or other wwf staff "why is there so many storylines and so few matches?" he can reply "because it's not wrestling its sports entertainment." Vince himself even said "sometimes we (him and storyline writers) wish we could remove the wrestling part from the name" explaining another way to decrease the amount of actual matches. I refuse to recognise all this sports entertainment bs because of the way it results in the wrestlers (who risk their lives and train so hard) being put in a 2 minute match (which gets no crowd reaction) to be over shadowed by a 15 minute speech by Triple H saying how great he is.

Storylines were around before sports entertainment just they were more proportional to the wrestling matches.
gosh i'm gonna get b0ll0cked

HSM

12-04-2002, 06:19 PM

God dammnit Jack do you think you could go one post without insulting people????You like wrestling well good for you now just stop insulting all those people who prefer sports entertainment its there choice as i have said before the world would be very boring if we all watched the same thing and had the same opinion so just lighten up go watch your "wrestling" and leave all those people who prefer "sports entertainment " be

Tajiri

12-04-2002, 06:22 PM

So would you rather watch 2 hours of chris benoits doing match after match after match, or would you prefer to watch something a little more different types and styles with storylines.

You seem to be trying to say that a wrestling show would have a few 20 minute matches and thats all, no storylines, no promos, nothing, and that is completely wrong.

A wrestling show has different types and styles, like hardcore, cruiserweight, main event style, it has storylines look at all the great feuds like Owen/Bret Savage/Steamboat, Steamboat/Flair, Bret/Austin, Funk/Cactus the list goes on, they didn't have pointless backstage skits or trucks crushing stuff, a wrestling show has promos look at 80's NWA it had amazing promos from Flair, WWF in the 80s had Roberts best work, ECW in 95 had countless Foley promos that were truly fantastic to watch, those promos weren't 25 minutes long and didn't consist of cheap pops and cathprahes and they got to the point they were trying to get over. Alot of people will say "well Rocks and HHH's promos get great heat" and that is true they do get great heat but do they need to be so long, a few mintutes before or after a match would get the same heat.

If you look at the ratings breakdowns of most WWF shows the sports entertainment stuff doesn't do as well compared to wrestling stuff, an clear example of this was Hogan/Rock from Raw last month, the promo that build up the feud drew the biggest rating that WWF had had it months and rightly so as it built up the Mania main event really well but as soon as the Hogan ramming Rocks ambulance with the truck started a huge number of fans changed the channel.

Sports Entertainement was not created by Vince McMahon in the 80's so he could brand his new style of wrestling, it was created so he could get out of controls that required representatives most noteable a ring side doctor to be present at Pro Wrestling shows (he had to pay for them to be there and hated it).

Russ

12-04-2002, 06:29 PM

Wrestling. No doubt.

But as long as I remain unemployed, Puro/Lucha isn't given away for free and my subscription to Sky Sports continues, I'll keep watching the WWF's offering of Sports/Sportz Entertainment.

The Heel

12-04-2002, 07:29 PM

If Wrestling is what was around before Vince made "Sports Entertainment" than i'll choose Wrestling

Simon

12-04-2002, 07:37 PM

I didnt get into Wrestling by watching Japanese Wrestling, or the Ultimate Fighting championship or whatever, I got into it when I was watching the WWF, and guys like Hogan entertained the fans not just through wrestling. It was the emotion coupled with the athleticism (ok back then athleticism was poorer yeh yeh).

Sure I love seeing Benoit V Angle etc, but why cant there be a storyline involved? I voted Sports Entertainment cause personally I like a nice mixture. Just my opinion as a WWF fan.

Inno

12-04-2002, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Jack_Halewood
I know exactly how this will go because most fans in the UK are kids who don't evem know the difference between Wrestling and Sports Entertainment, hell, they think they are one and the same. Of course, there should be SOME people who care about tradition, about all the people who gave everything they had to make wrestling respected, until Vince McMahon spat on their faces, the grave of his father, the careers of Lou Thesz, Frank Gotch and numerous others when he created Sports Entertainment. What kind of human being would disgrace their own father's grave, a father who gave Vince one of the bets possible upbringings with a very rich livelihood?

Just BLOODY vote - leave the lecture!!!

I won't vote - I can differentiate between the two and watch both styles, and further more, enjoy both.

The Dead One

12-04-2002, 08:08 PM

Every where I look there is a little Rob trying to cause problem's. I'll tell you what is not wrestling.... Jumping through a table in your parent's backyard.
I've never jumped through a table in my parents backyard. So what are you talking about?

Rob McKay

Tajiri

12-04-2002, 08:31 PM

Sure I love seeing Benoit V Angle etc, but why cant there be a storyline involved?

There is a Story involved.

Jack_Halewood

12-04-2002, 09:47 PM

Why does there have to be a storyline? Why can't it just be two wrestlers getting in the ring to see who the better person is to see who can advance further up the rankings and improve their status?

Simon

12-04-2002, 09:54 PM

Tajiri I know there was a storyline involved, I was just saying to people that only wanted wrestling, that theres no reason for there not to be one. It all adds to the emotion of the matches.

Perfection

12-04-2002, 10:35 PM

World WRESTLING Federation.

I enjoy Wrestling more than i do Sports Entertainment, though i do SOMETIMES enjoy Sports Entertainment, sometimes more so than the Wrestling but the Wrestling in the WWF's product has taken an incredibly huge backseat which is very annoying for me.

I think it really all comes down to A 20 minute Rock promo talking about his strudle and people smelling what hes cooking OR Benoit VS Angle in a 20 minute Technical classic. I think the majority of fans (probably not here but overall) would vote for The Rock promo which is a huge slap in the face to the Wrestlers who have spent the better part of their lives training to WRESTLE and didn't think about talking crap on a microphone.

Don't take what i've said as to meaning i am just another 'smart' because im not, i enjoy the promos but WRESTLING is what i watch the shows for.

Dean Douglas

13-04-2002, 09:35 AM

No point in voting, Mr Halewood's beloved "Wrestling" and "Sports Entertainment" are the same thing, the only differnce is that the US feds focus more on the Entertainment side and Japan and Mexico focus more on the Sports side. And before anyone wants to jump the gun...

Q: Is "Wrestling" a 100% legitimate sport?

Q: Does "Wrestling" use a sport as a basis for pre determined, worked exhibtions for the entertainment of an audience?

Q: What is the term for the genre create by amalgamating sport and entertainment in this way?

Jack_Halewood

13-04-2002, 11:09 AM

Dean, Vince McMahon created Sports Entertainment, but he never created professional wrestling, so how is professional wrestling and sports entertainment one and the same?

Skullmonkey

13-04-2002, 04:10 PM

Well.... Because they are.

Both puro and the US product use the same forumula. Puro just take's more from the in ring work, and well rounded matches side of professional wrestling.

Where as the WWF take's more from the story behind the match, and thrilling the crowd with a cool looking spot's side of professional wrestling.

Inno

13-04-2002, 04:42 PM

Skull, let me introduce you to a Brick Wall I know... you'll have more luck trying to talk to this.

Jack_Halewood

13-04-2002, 06:32 PM

SkullMonkey, OK, look at it like this. Let's say I create a style of films and call it 'ABC'. OK, does that mean that films are ALL 'ABC'??? Course not. Then how come when Vince McMahon Jr created a style of wrestling and called it 'Sports Entertainment' (the style he created in the 1980s when he moved away from a wrestling product) you think 'Sports Entertainment' is all wrestling is?

Skullmonkey

13-04-2002, 06:50 PM

By that last post I can safely assume that you have never seen the old NWA, or AWA product that was in place before Vince Jr. took over the WWF.

Sport's entertainment has been around for a great deal longer then you care to admit.... The simple fact is that "all" Professional wrestling in some way utilized the "sport's entertainment" format. Just not to the extent of the current WWF.

For you to call any professional federation "real wrestling" over another is just absurd, and to call anyone who enjoy's it "stupid", or just a "dumb mark" is more so....

When in fact you are just as much a mark of your chosen "sport's entertainment".

Jack_Halewood

13-04-2002, 07:00 PM

I'm not saying promos and angles weren't around before SE, what I am saying is that the product of 'Sports Entertainment/Entertainment Wrestling' was created by Vince McMahon. Where the focus is on all the angles and promos and there's no focus whatsoever on the in-ring product. How many times has Vince said he'd want to get rid of the matches altogether? Exactly. 'Sports Entertainment' is a Soap-Opera and goes against the entire purpose of working matches when matches were originally worked in the early 20th century. The aim then was to make the bigger matches as good as possible and to show the progression of wrestlers trough the matches (progressional psychology) without having to risk that they might lose. It was never meant to be used in the way that Vince McMahon did when he moved away from that completely. And I have seen a hell of a lot of the old NWA, AWA, Mid-South, World Class, probably about 100 tapes of the old territories in total.

Dean Douglas

13-04-2002, 09:19 PM

Dont you get it?, what you call "wrestling" is sports entertainment and what you call "sports entertainment" is just differnet branch of what you call "wrestling". I can use flash cards next time if it helps...oh, and be a good boy and answer those questions for me, you seem to have missed them. :)

Jack_Halewood

13-04-2002, 09:47 PM

Not quite, what I call 'wrestling' is the style of product used by NJPW (strong style) AJPW and others in Japan. When, you know, the only interviews are 'post-match thoughs' (like on 'The Premiership' or after any footy matches) and the main focus is, good god, wrestling. In fact, I'd guarantee fans in Japan (and the wrestlers) would probably take offence to you calling what they do 'show puroresu' (what they call Sports Entertainment. Translates, obviously, as 'Show Wrestling'). Realistically, Dean, considering that actual wrestlers think the same way, I'm pretty sure that mod or not, you're the one in the wrong.

Jayden

13-04-2002, 09:50 PM

Show me a promotion where their matches aren't worked and then I'll agree that it's wrestling, not sports entertainment.

As it happens I personally find the Greco-Roman style olympic amateur wrestling really really boring.

I guess if that was all we needed to keep us entertained then it wouldn't be an olympic sport as all the guys who participate would be professionals not amateurs, and they'd be earning megabucks *** we'd all be paying so much to watch it

Dean Douglas

13-04-2002, 10:03 PM

Can't you find those questions or does the truth hurt?.

I wil go very s..l..o..w..l..y for your benefit as so many people have said the same thing but you're obviously having a bit of difficulty understanding it. "wrestling" is a worked sport, it is not real, the wrestlers do not really fight eachother. The reason they "wrestle" is to entertain the crowd, still with me?, if they were in fact wrestling eachother in a legitimate competition with no predetermined winner then that would be wrestling but...and wait for this....they aren't!, they are in fact using a sport as a basis for a form of entertainment and Vince McMahon coined an accurate term for this in, you guessed it, sports entertainment. As nice as it is to think of this as some kind of noble competition you really shouldn't, the only difference is that people like Vince McMahon lean more towards the entertainment and the Japanese like to see it a bit more sports orientated.

I shall be very disappointed indeed if you haven't grasped this basic concept.

Jack_Halewood

13-04-2002, 10:22 PM

Ah, yes, but using that basis, all wrestling is also puroresu and lucha-libre. It's simply a word used for the style that Vince did, and, oh, I'm pretty sure wrestling isn't look at as entertainment in Japan. Sure, they find it entertaining, but sports channels cover it as legitimate, wrestlers give interviews as if they've just done legitimate matches TO THE NATIONAL MEDIA!!! Yes, they know it's worked, but they can actually suspend disbelief. OK, so the phrase Vince coined is very 'clever', but when I use the term 'Sports Entertainment' I use it in relation to the style of 'entertainment wrestling' that Vince McMahon uses, like most people who take names as names and not as what they can be literally used to mean.

Jack_Halewood

13-04-2002, 10:25 PM

And let me guess Dean. Football, Basketball, Rugby, Cricket, Baseball and Tennis are all Sports Entertainment... using your literal system they are. They're SPORTS, which ENTERTAIN, so surely they're SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT. See, that's why you take NAMES as only NAMES and not so literally...

Dean Douglas

13-04-2002, 10:31 PM

Honestly, that reply was weaker than a 4 year old on muscle relaxants, media coverage doesn't change the fact that your beloved "wrestling" is still worked, it's not real, it's not Wrestling, it is Sports Entertainment, a form of entertainment using sport as a basis, a miopic person sees something far away as a blur, does that mean it is a blur even when others can see it for what it is?. Additionally, why do you continue to make the distinction between "sports entertainment" and "wrestling" when they are the same thing?, if everything went by your logic, the music forum would need about 50 different subforums to deal with all the commericial music, progressive music, cult music, etc, etc.

Jack_Halewood

13-04-2002, 11:47 PM

OK, so ANY kind of entertainment using sports as a basis is Sports Entertaling, yes? OK, so I guess you're acting as some kind of teacher, yes? OK, ANY kind of entertainment... which uses sport as a basis. Sport Computer Games? They're entertainment, yes, since, well, they ENTERTAIN, and use sport as a basis, are they Sports Entertainment? How about TV shows like Dream Team and Footballer's Wives? They're entertainment and use sports as a basis... or the Rocky filsm, they're based around the pligh of a boxer so they're based on sports I would guess, are THEY sports entertainment? Weird... Rocky, Dream Team, FIFA 2002 AND New Japan Pro Wrestling are all one and the same... wow.

Inno

14-04-2002, 12:19 AM

I hear two noises when I see a Jack post now...

ZZZZZzzzzz......

and

*sskkkiiiiitttch* (That's the sound of the bottom of the barrel being scraped)

Jack_Halewood

14-04-2002, 12:34 AM

Dreaner, all I did was do the exact same thing Dean did... take all the words literally.

Skullmonkey

14-04-2002, 01:00 AM

I'm not even sure Jack knew what the "words" meaning was in the first place...

Your all entertainment is the same theory is one of the most ludicrous piece's of trash I have ever read... You made no point what-so-ever.

Jack_Halewood

14-04-2002, 10:06 AM

Alright then, how about this: You are all 'Puroresu' fans, since 'Puroresu' means, literally, Professional Wrestling (in the Japanese Language), but when we use the phrase we only use it applied to JAPANESE wrestling, because that is 'their' name for pro wrestling. Now, transfer that over, 'Sports Entertainment' then only applies to US wrestling... would you like it any slower...???

Nicole

14-04-2002, 10:26 AM

Jack, were you dropped on your head as a child? I think you must have, *** information isnt going into your brain properly.

Ok, The bottom line is, WRESTLING IS FAKE!. Ok, the guys/gals who do it do bnot intentionally wanna hurt or injure there opponent, becaus its there job, there life.

In america, wrestling entertains
in japan, wrestling entertains.

Wow, they sound a bit the same don't they, shall we carry on?

In america, wrestling is fake.
In Japan, Wrestling is fake

But in america, you refer to it as sports entertainment
In japan, its called Wrestling.

But why call it two different names? it's comepletly the same thing!

One small difference
Japan focuses a little bit more on presenting it as a legitimat sport
America like to have storylines, which can build up a match to unbelieveable proportions.

So, Jack, do you get what this means? Both products are sports entertainment and wrestling. Wow, that was hard to understand wasnt it.
Have you grasped the fact that there both fake yet? Good boy, i hope you have.

Jack_Halewood

14-04-2002, 10:39 AM

Yes, of course I know wrestling is fixed (not quite sure about fake, since they get the shit kicked out of them) but the whole idea of working matches, oh, I've mentioned before. Don;t you realise that the phrase 'Sports Entertainment' IS ONLY A NAME... A NAME... Jesus. A NAME, don't you realise the reason Vince McMahon used that very phrase because he is against wrestling and by cleverly using that he created a 'new name' which he knew people would take literally. IT'S A NAME!!!!! THAT'S IT!

Nicole

14-04-2002, 10:41 AM

vince mcmahon is not against the name wrestling, that word built his life, your the one who is pissing on vince mcmahon, vince isnt pissing on traditions

Jack_Halewood

14-04-2002, 10:52 AM

Vince didn't piss on tradition? OK then how come the WWF stands for ANYTHING BUT tradition? Are long, boring, interviews traditional? No. Are all the run-ins and angles traditional? No. TRADITION would be CLEAN FINISHES, TRADITION would be two wrestlers getting in the ring JUST TO PROOVE WHO IS THE BETTER MAN, DESERVES A HIGH PLACE IN THE RANKINGS AND BETTER STATUS IN THEIR DIVISON! When has the WWF ever been about that? Never. o Vince cares about tradition? Then why did he kill the history of the old NWA Title belt (later the WCW Title). Why did he cut WCW off IN MID SENTENCE when Tony Schiavone and Scott Hudson were saying their deserved goodbyes, just so he could run A STUPID ANGLE with his son?!?!?

Nicole

14-04-2002, 10:55 AM

Jack, i think you need to lighten up. The wwf cannot be whatever you want for two hours, its something for everyone. its his living, its his business, he will do what he wants with it, and its small minded *****s who try to bring it down

Jack_Halewood

14-04-2002, 10:58 AM

'I'm a small minded *****' OK, so someone who wants a WRESTLING product, where the show is WRESTLING and not all angles and promos is bad, right?

Nicole

14-04-2002, 11:01 AM

yes, because you are trying to restrict what people are watching. make your own product when wrestlers wrestle for two hours straight, and watch the ratings fall :D

Michael

14-04-2002, 11:09 AM

um , so what ? , whats your point ?

The style vince mcmahon uses today focuses more on entertainment , on angles and storylines more than wrestling. so what , he doesn't follow the tradition format.

If vince didnt use "sports entertainment" then wrestling wouldnt be as big as it is today. Do you think the WWF would be a bilion doller company if it where not for the creation of sports entertainment ?.

do you know why ? , because the magority of viewers find the actual wrestling aspect boring , people dont watch wrestling for the wrestling anymore , and so what , why does it matter. If you where vince would you rather have a hugely succesfull tv show based on sports entertainment or a samll show entertaining the minority of peoople who are magor "wrestling fans" .

the wrestling business is just that , a business. The business is there to make money , not entertain the minority of die hard wrestling fans that exist.

in closing , i think this jack character has watched one too many paul heyman promo.

Mike

Tajiri

14-04-2002, 01:43 PM

The All Japan style of straight matches that the Japanese love wouldn't work in the US as the majority of fans simply don't want it.

Now Vince McMahon calls his product Sports Entertainment (for the clear and simply reason its a worked sport which contains elements that entertain) but it's still Pro Wrestling, Heyman called his product hardcore but it was still Pro Wrestling, Lucha Libre is still Pro Wrestling as is Puro in the same way there are different genres of Films but there all still Films. Sports Entertainment is not a seperate thing but just a name that Vince McMahon gives his Pro Wrestling shows. I enjoy the fact that there are different styles as it gives different stuff to watch, I like watching a WWF PPV and then watching an All Japan show as they both achive different things. The only problem I have with WWF is the short time matches are given on TV and the vast amount of meaningless promos, would the majority of fans have hated it if Helms/Tajiri had of had 8 or 9 minutes insted of 4? would the majority of fans of hated it if the opening promo on Raw had been done in 10 minutes insted of 25?.

As for Vince McMahon pissing on tradition, he did in the 80s and ran most promotions out of business, i'm not defending what he did but he is a business man and if Pepsi had a chance to run Coca Cola and Dr Pepper out of business legally would they sit back and honour the tradition of Cola making?. Now he does like to just ignore things that happened before 1983, look at Bruno Samartino and Billy Grahm who made McMahons father millions having only been talked about or seen once in 15 years on WWF TV, but if people want to see old WWWF, NWA, AWA etc guys then go buy tapes or books like I have done.